Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

@PheasantPlucker1

Women as individuals have participated in the opression of gay men, just like black men as individuals have participated in the persecution of white men.

Individuals do not make a class.

Women as a class have never had power over men, gay or straight. If youd like to argue feel name the society that happened in, so I can read about it.

I know far more female senior management, heads of department and heads of council in my job role than I do male.

The leader of my country is a woman.
Of course , if you have an agenda that women are always weaker, victims, badly done to, you can shoehorn that into everything and twist everything.

It's interesting that when women have done wrong it's just the individuals, but when a man has done wrong it's all of them. Funny that.

So you DO understand privilege? Yet you don't understand the white privilege of this thread comparing drag to minstrels?

Drag is highly offensive when men use the label of women for a cheap and nasty laugh. Minstrels are highly offensive for the obvious racism. They are offensive for different reasons, and the op should have used different examples as to how using an oppressed group for a cheap laugh when coming from a place of privilege is not ok. There are plenty of other examples out there in the media beyond race, none are ok.

Individuals do make a class.

Some are at the top, in power. Some are not.
Even now women do not make up 50% of our ruling class. The laws that opressed gay men, and women, were made by men.

(Although women probably wouldnt have done much better, its arguably religion we have to blame for homophobia through the centuries)

I would say all of comedy uses either themselves or another class for a laugh.

Michael McIntyre and Jason Manford are about the only two I can think that don't, but even they rely on stereotypes, because thats what comedy is.

As I said upthread I get sick of stupid acting, false , argumentative women on TV who knows that gets ratings and money. Aggravates the absolute life out of me. But that seems to be Ok because they're women

@PheasantPlucker1

Individuals do make a class.

Some are at the top, in power. Some are not.
Even now women do not make up 50% of our ruling class. The laws that opressed gay men, and women, were made by men.

(Although women probably wouldnt have done much better, its arguably religion we have to blame for homophobia through the centuries)

Religion and a different generation.

Women can be just as judgemental, small minded and offensive as men.

Ah another one runs away when asked a direct question. By the way, @StaciesSpace calling them 'men in lippy and wigs' is transphobic so I'd be careful with your language

They're fully aware they're men though, it's literally putting on a costume, a persona?
Then the costume comes off - they're not saying they're a woman, it's a character they perform.
They're not trans, not usually anyway.

They absolutely have. Women have thrown out their sons. Women have supported section 28. Women have advocated for gay men to locked up in prison because of who they sleep with and who they loved. Women have called gay men perverts and child molesters and deviants

To pretend that women did not and do not participate in the persecution of gay men is delusional and infantalising

Yes I remember just a few years ago in my country when we were the first to legalise same sex marriage...although gay people could vote... straight people really had the final say. That's pretty powerful. Plenty of places in the world where straight people still get to say how gay people live.

I still know many many straight people who think it's up to them whether gay people marry and have children.

Clue- they're not make.

Male

Now we must try take away an art form close to the gay communities heart because they are offending someone again.

@RootyT00t

Absolutely *@SunshineAvocado*

I wasn't actually relating that to a TV show.

I was pointing out that we as women cannot hate men as a class based on a class's actions.

I agree and I have noticed that man blaming on here. I tend to just roll my eyes and ignore.

RootyToot what country are you in?

Im England, so women are still only 32% of MPs, despite 50.6% of the population being female.

Huge improvement from the section 28days when Thatcher had no females in her cabinet

They can't help being born male.

They can benefit from the male privilege they have, often without realising it, though. That people listen to them when they speak. That what they want or need is the default requirement. That their feelings matter and should be listened to, while those of women can be disregarded. I remember your complete blind spot when it comes to class analysis from another thread. You agree that white people have class privilege, yes? In the same way, so do male people.

@Notimeforaname

Now we must try take away an art form close to the gay communities heart because they are offending someone again.

Not offended as such, just uninterested. I don't have an issue with the gay community, their choices are up to them but I don't get the obsession with trans which is something which affects 2% of the population.

I actually quite like Grayson Perry and Eddie Hazard though. I like that they don't take themselves or their being trans all that seriously. They don't see themselves as victimised, and I admire that.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

They can't help being born male.

They can benefit from the male privilege they have, often without realising it, though. That people listen to them when they speak. That what they want or need is the default requirement. That their feelings matter and should be listened to, while those of women can be disregarded. I remember your complete blind spot when it comes to class analysis from another thread. You agree that white people have class privilege, yes? In the same way, so do male people.

Same as white people but most white people don't oppress others. They haven't the power. But some of them may be racist. Most are not, even though they benefit from privilege.

@Notimeforaname

Now we must try take away an art form close to the gay communities heart because they are offending someone again.

Oh no, it's only women being offended by blatant misogynistic behaviour so it doesn't matter. Gay men are obviously on one of these higher levels of oppressed, so can do whatever they want as long as we pretend that taking the piss out of women is an 'art form' .

I'll agree with anything that gets Mrs Brown's boys of TV!!

It's perfectly reasonable discourse in modern "intersectional" social justice circles to say that all white people are a bit racist. It isn't a view I personally subscribe to. But I agree that all white people have the privilege of not being treated as lesser due to their skin colour. Like males have the privilege of not being treated as lesser due to their sex.

Notimeforaname you have argued many times drag is not just impersonating women.

So how would it be taking away something dear to the gay community to ask them to leave any reference to women out of their acts?

RE: Eddie Izzard, I think he has definitely been taking himself too seriously lately.

I think it was Eddie Izzard who once said they werent womens clothes, he bought them so they were his.
Huge respect for that, even though I was never a fan.

He claims to be a woman and wishes to be known as she now.

Like males have the privilege of not being treated as lesser due to their sex.

Gay men and camp men, and men are treated as lesser due to their sex, and the expectations placed on that sex.

No, I disagree. They were/are treated as lesser due to their sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation, not their perceived reproductive capacity. They were considered lesser in a different way to women. I'm not denying the oppression they faced, or that some men don't benefit from sexism but males as a class are the privileged sex of the two sexes. Again, this isn't about individuals.

Eddie Izzard, I think he has definitely been taking himself too seriously lately.

"When Moyles mentioned he was pulled up by a few listeners because he called Eddie 'he' on-air, the stand-up said: "Everyone online thank you for backing me up with the 'she', but just relax on that.

"We've got to relax on that. With some people [it's a] complete transition and that's it, but with me I am somewhere on the spectrum. I am gender fluid, so I absolve all people right now. Anyone who uses he or she it's cool. Just everyone chill."

Yes, she sounds really uptight.

@PheasantPlucker1

I think it was Eddie Izzard who once said they werent womens clothes, he bought them so they were his. Huge respect for that, even though I was never a fan.

He claims to be a woman and wishes to be known as she now.

I have a friend who used to be a lesbian and a bit tinnitus in her interests and how she dressed. Then when she hit her 30s she came out as trans! I was very surprised because I had thought most of them know since childhood that they feel dysphoria but she never mentioned until it became en vogue. Am guessing she didn't feel safe to come out with it until she hit her 30s. I

Just like mental health used to be a taboo, now many people are coming forward with their experiences and realising that about 1 in 3 struggle at some point in their lifetime. It isn't a bandwagon, it is a genuine thing people never felt able to share with anyone before.