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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

651 replies

Taoneusa · 25/02/2021 15:28

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 21:38

The thing is -

Men haven't oppressed woman.

A man, a man, a man has.

My dad didn't make the rules on marital rape. My brother doesn't beat up his girlfriend or call her a slut. My friend doesn't make the laws.

What posters claiming these blanket statements are saying is ridiculous.

Women have been covering up murders and exploiting babies for years. (Always excused on MN as being in fear of a man, obviously).

So should children fear women?

Of course not. Because all women aren't the same.

Am I responsible for the slave trade because I'm whit? Of course I'm bloody not.
All youths aren't the same. All black or white people aren't the same. And all men and all women aren't the same.

Ijustreallywantacat · 25/02/2021 21:38

Women have never opressed gay men

Seriously?

Women have never oppressed gay men?
Women are 50% of the society that oppresses gay men.

RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 21:39

@Ijustreallywantacat

Women have never opressed gay men

Seriously?

Women have never oppressed gay men?
Women are 50% of the society that oppresses gay men.

What you have to remember on MN is that anything and everything is the man's fault. Every time without fail. Every other group in society is a victim and men are evil, bad, oppressors but have perfect lives. It'd be funny but people genuinely believe this.
PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 21:39

No, women as a class have never had enough power to opress gay men.

So why do you think it isnt to ok mock gay men, but it is ok to mock women in the exact same way?

PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 21:41

Who made the laws in the societies that opressed gay men?

It wasnt women, was it. They werent even allowed to vote, never mind pass laws.

RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 21:43

@PheasantPlucker1

No, women as a class have never had enough power to opress gay men.

So why do you think it isnt to ok mock gay men, but it is ok to mock women in the exact same way?

Again, us poor defenceless women. No power and just sat in the corner and thrown scraps.

In what way have men oppressed gay men in that we haven't? Other than men hundreds of years ago who made laws yet OP would presumably not blame a 5 year old boy for that, but oops you're 18 and a man now so you're awful!

Because it isn't exactly the same way, is it?

Female comedians take the piss out of women all the time, about how we behave, how we act.

Female musicians write sexist stereotypical nonsense that is in the mainstream all day.

Female actresses play ridiculous simpering roles and we all watch it.

The only time a particular type of feminist had an issue with a female being stereotyped or mocked is when a man does it. Why? Because it's another argument for us poor women being defenceless.

I don't want our youngsters growing up thinking men are all bad and women are all poor defenceless victims with no power. Not in a million years.

RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 21:45

@PheasantPlucker1

Who made the laws in the societies that opressed gay men?

It wasnt women, was it. They werent even allowed to vote, never mind pass laws.

Well aware of that.

But it wasn't my brother , my father or Ru bloody Paul that did that, was it.

So if I'm Jewish, I can hate and criticise every German who lives for the rest of time? That's absolutely fine, isn't it?

If I'm an industrial worker, I can hate all women, because Margaret Thatcher ruined me?

You know those psycho weirdo men that go around killing blonde women because their ex was blonde? .......

PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 21:45

Youre argueing a point no one has made RootyToot.

I have married men. Ive given birth to sons and raised men.

Obvs, NAMALT. Can you move on now?

Why do you think it is ok for men to mock women, but not for women to mock gay men?

Notimeforaname · 25/02/2021 21:45

It's always a stereotype of a woman. Huge breasts high heels, thick makeup, dyed hair etc..they never seem to dress up as a woman wearing jeans with short hair and trainers!
Its really not. Some do that. But thats really not all. My best friend regularly does drag in baggy jeans and high top trainers with no boobs... he's a trained dancer and will incorporate that into performances. Drag is so much more than what's hitting the mainstream the last few years.

RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 21:46

I am not denying women were oppressed. I am not denying women still have it hard.

What I am saying is, being bitter and angry about it for the rest of time and hating all men achieves nothing.

Look at Malala. She was shot in the head by a grown man and denied education.

Do you think she refuses to work alongside all men or hates school kids because they got what she didn't?

Or does she fight for UNITY.

BrumBoo · 25/02/2021 21:48

@RootyT00t, an individual man isn't bad. Just like an individual white person isn't bad. As a general group in society though? Come on, you know exactly what I mean and the position of privilege certain 'labels' bring. BLM was about telling everyone that for a moment in time at least, they needed to shut up and listen to the black community, that even in this world where a Liberalwhiye person will not think themselves racist there was still a huge gap in how black and white people are treated and everyone needs to hear it.

It's the same with women and men. The latter still take opportunity away from women at any given moment. In jobs where a man will be chosen over a young woman, because she might need a few months off very couple of years to have children, in medicine where male doctors won't take 'women's issues' seriously, leaving us suffering or even dying from treatable conditions, where we live in a society where a woman who gets raped and murder walking home alone is blamed for her attack as for whatever reason 'she should have known better than to be alone'. So yes, men sometimes suffer from the shit side of society, but more often than not as a group they are the ones perpetuating the shitness and most of the the time it's directed at women. So no, I really couldn't give a shit what RuPaul thinks what toxic masculinity is, as a man whilst he refuses to acknowledge how referring to himself as a woman is part of the bigger problem of misogyny, and therefore part of the anti-women issue as a whole.

As I said previously, it's not always about the big issues. Misogyny needs to be called out anywhere and everywhere it's seen, until people understand that just a bit of sexism in the name of entertainment is not ok.

PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 21:48

If Im Jewish, can I hate Germans

That would be a personal choice, however not one Id agree with. Itd be very harmful to the Jewish individual, too.

However if a German dressed up as a Jew and referred to themselves using Jewish terms while mocking Jews, I imagine Jewish people would be pretty fucking pissed off about that.

Its not something Id want to see on TV either.

RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 21:48

@PheasantPlucker1

Youre argueing a point no one has made RootyToot.

I have married men. Ive given birth to sons and raised men.

Obvs, NAMALT. Can you move on now?

Why do you think it is ok for men to mock women, but not for women to mock gay men?

Have you read the thread?

Brum has stated categorically that all men think less of women. You are also claiming that women have never oppressed gay men. So you've both made those points.

I don't think it's ok for men to mock women. I don't like or watch drag.

Ive never disagreed with that.

You didn't answer my question. Why is it OK for women to mock other women?

SunshineAvocado · 25/02/2021 21:49

@Notimeforaname

It's always a stereotype of a woman. Huge breasts high heels, thick makeup, dyed hair etc..they never seem to dress up as a woman wearing jeans with short hair and trainers! Its really not. Some do that. But thats really not all. My best friend regularly does drag in baggy jeans and high top trainers with no boobs... he's a trained dancer and will incorporate that into performances. Drag is so much more than what's hitting the mainstream the last few years.
Ah, my apologies. I think I have only seen the mainstream kind.
RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 21:49

@PheasantPlucker1

If Im Jewish, can I hate Germans

That would be a personal choice, however not one Id agree with. Itd be very harmful to the Jewish individual, too.

However if a German dressed up as a Jew and referred to themselves using Jewish terms while mocking Jews, I imagine Jewish people would be pretty fucking pissed off about that.

Its not something Id want to see on TV either.

I'm not talking about drag here Pheasant as well you know.

I'm talking about PP arguing that it's OK to say that all men are the same and woman can hate them because of the years of oppression.

Ijustreallywantacat · 25/02/2021 21:50

No, women as a class have never had enough power to opress gay men.

They absolutely have. Women have thrown out their sons. Women have supported section 28. Women have advocated for gay men to locked up in prison because of who they sleep with and who they loved. Women have called gay men perverts and child molesters and deviants.

To pretend that women did not and do not participate in the persecution of gay men is delusional and infantalising.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I do not believe that drag mocks women. I don't think its about women. It's about allowing men to wear make up and dresses and wild outfits and call themselves whatever the fuck they like.

RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 21:51

[quote BrumBoo]@RootyT00t, an individual man isn't bad. Just like an individual white person isn't bad. As a general group in society though? Come on, you know exactly what I mean and the position of privilege certain 'labels' bring. BLM was about telling everyone that for a moment in time at least, they needed to shut up and listen to the black community, that even in this world where a Liberalwhiye person will not think themselves racist there was still a huge gap in how black and white people are treated and everyone needs to hear it.

It's the same with women and men. The latter still take opportunity away from women at any given moment. In jobs where a man will be chosen over a young woman, because she might need a few months off very couple of years to have children, in medicine where male doctors won't take 'women's issues' seriously, leaving us suffering or even dying from treatable conditions, where we live in a society where a woman who gets raped and murder walking home alone is blamed for her attack as for whatever reason 'she should have known better than to be alone'. So yes, men sometimes suffer from the shit side of society, but more often than not as a group they are the ones perpetuating the shitness and most of the the time it's directed at women. So no, I really couldn't give a shit what RuPaul thinks what toxic masculinity is, as a man whilst he refuses to acknowledge how referring to himself as a woman is part of the bigger problem of misogyny, and therefore part of the anti-women issue as a whole.

As I said previously, it's not always about the big issues. Misogyny needs to be called out anywhere and everywhere it's seen, until people understand that just a bit of sexism in the name of entertainment is not ok.[/quote]
I don't disagree.

But no, I cannot agree that men as a whole think women are lesser.

They don't make the rules.

They can't help being born male.

RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 21:51

@Ijustreallywantacat

No, women as a class have never had enough power to opress gay men.

They absolutely have. Women have thrown out their sons. Women have supported section 28. Women have advocated for gay men to locked up in prison because of who they sleep with and who they loved. Women have called gay men perverts and child molesters and deviants.

To pretend that women did not and do not participate in the persecution of gay men is delusional and infantalising.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I do not believe that drag mocks women. I don't think its about women. It's about allowing men to wear make up and dresses and wild outfits and call themselves whatever the fuck they like.

Totally agree. You are so right.
Level32 · 25/02/2021 21:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 21:56

Women as individuals have participated in the opression of gay men, just like black men as individuals have participated in the persecution of white men.

Individuals do not make a class.

Women as a class have never had power over men, gay or straight. If youd like to argue feel name the society that happened in, so I can read about it.

SunshineAvocado · 25/02/2021 21:58

@PheasantPlucker1

If Im Jewish, can I hate Germans

That would be a personal choice, however not one Id agree with. Itd be very harmful to the Jewish individual, too.

However if a German dressed up as a Jew and referred to themselves using Jewish terms while mocking Jews, I imagine Jewish people would be pretty fucking pissed off about that.

Its not something Id want to see on TV either.

True and the other way round would also be just as abhorrent. My father was Jewish.
RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 21:59

@PheasantPlucker1

Women as individuals have participated in the opression of gay men, just like black men as individuals have participated in the persecution of white men.

Individuals do not make a class.

Women as a class have never had power over men, gay or straight. If youd like to argue feel name the society that happened in, so I can read about it.

If individuals do not make a class, then nobody can make blanket statements about anyone.
SunshineAvocado · 25/02/2021 22:00

In terms of oppressing people, the ones oppressing are the ones in power to make laws, enforce them etc

So none of us are really oppressing anyone as we don't have power, we are not the Elite. I doubt many of us on here are rich or high up in government.

But we can still be prejudiced against another group of people. Anyone can be.

RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 22:00

Absolutely @SunshineAvocado

I wasn't actually relating that to a TV show.

I was pointing out that we as women cannot hate men as a class based on a class's actions.

Notimeforaname · 25/02/2021 22:02

Ah, my apologies. I think I have only seen the mainstream kind
Well you weren't to know. Smile

That's the thing..if it's not something you've been around or really know the inner workings of and the people behind the costumes,you really cant know what makes them tic and how they think and feel.

And of course if only one... or very few sides of the art is being shown to the general public who otherwise would not be mixing in circles with drag performers, then they can only base their opinions on what they have seen. There are men and women of all shapes and sizes,races and backgrounds,gay and straight, performing as drag artists. And also all the people who work around them,for them and with them.

I understand it offends some women and respect their views. Plenty offends me that may not offend others.

But drag is not illegal or a form of abuse and isnt the same a racism.

It's perfectly acceptable to hate drag but it is here..and not going anywhere for now.

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