Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

*because women weren't allowed to act.

@Skysblue

Please keep complaining to the BBC. They’re heavily promoting drag nonstop, and also trans gender ideology, and some of the stuff on the BBC websites is very offensive. If they have to keep logging and writing replies to complaints this does have an effect on what they choose to promote.

Let's not derail into trans gender ideology, please.

People can complain, but the BBC will not pull it, nor should they.

The same way as you know Disney Worlds Mickey Mouse is someone in a suit, but you'd still call them Mickey Mouse

There isn’t a long history of humans oppressing mice though.

It’s not like we’ve spent centuries trapping, crushing and poisoning them. Oh wait..

@BrumBoo

As Ru Paul said, it's about rejecting masculinity

Oh if Ru Paul said it . It's nothing to do with rejecting masculinity. Men do what they always do, and be shit to women. Gay men get treated like shit by 'masculine' men, and instead of standing up and saying 'fuck gender and it's stereotypes, being a man has nothing to do with masculinity or being effeminate', they've joined in with it. They are still men, much like you say race and sex are not comparable, neither is sexuality and sex. Gay men, camp men, effeminate men - they're all still men and they all still think women are something lesser.

You just cannot make blank statements like that Brum.

All men are not shit to women. All men do not see women as less.

@Ijustreallywantacat what I meant is that women are to blame for taking offence where there's none to be taken, according to the people who think drag is hilarious. But you know, things change. The Minstrel stuff was funny at some point. Drag is still sort of funny now. It won't be funny in ten years' time.

All men are not shit to women. All men do not see women as less.

Ah yes. Not all men. Where have I heard that before?

I love drag, the queen's make beautiful outfits, do beautiful hair and makeup and are absolutely hilarious. I love going to gay bars and seeing shows I'm not quite sure what some of your problems are but oh well.

Gay men, camp men, effeminate men - they're all still men and they all still think women are something lesser.

Can't believe I missed this hideous statement. Shame on you.

Gay men spend a lot less time thinking about you than you'd think.

Annalouise who gets to decide if something is offensive?

Should it be the people making the jokes?
Or the people the joke is about?

No it isn't. Drag is absolutely nothing like Black/white minstrel show. And 'woman-face' is not like 'blackface'. No. YABU.

@BrumBoo

All men are not shit to women. All men do not see women as less.

Ah yes. Not all men. Where have I heard that before?

From me, probably.

Because it's true, Brum.

Making out that all men are evil and bad is wrong.

You're going to tell me that there's no such thing as misandry because boo boo poor men they've had the upper hand all their lives etc but when you try and highlight misogny then criticise an entire group of people based on their sex, you are simply wrong. Sexist, wrong and totally unhelpful to your cause which I presume is for men and women to be equal.

Annalouise sorry just caught up with the thread and I took your comment out of context, apologies!

Why are there few (if any!) bio kings, that is men dressing up as men to mock men.

Steve Coogan - Paul Calf (bag o shite) lives on a council estate. Alan Partridge.

Harry Enfield - Kevin. Loadsamoney.

Gregor Fisher - Rab C Nesbitt

Barry Humphries - Sir Les Patterson

@Ijustreallywantacat

Oh if Ru Paul said it. It's nothing to do with rejecting masculinity. Men do what they always do, and be shit to women. Gay men get treated like shit by 'masculine' men, and instead of standing up and saying 'fuck gender and it's stereotypes, being a man has nothing to do with masculinity or being effeminate', they've joined in with it

Oh yes, if the world's most famous drag queen makes a statement about what drag is about, we definitely should not listen to it...

Being famous for doing something doesn't make you qualified for assessing it for everyone in the world.

He's not neutral.

What a bizarre comment.

I think the point is that Ru Paul is qualified to comment on what the purpose is, because it's him who started the premise.

Here’s an interesting one.

Catherine Tate - Derek (who sir me sir gay sir?)

RootyToot whatever RuPauls purpose is, he is still in the wrong.

Most of us have, at some point, used a word that we were then told is offensive. At that point most of us apologise, and stop using it.

RuPaul refuses too do that. He continues being offensive, while insisting he doesnt mean it to be.

Ignorance and unintelligence is not a defense, and his excuses do not wash.

You're going to tell me that there's no such thing as misandry because boo boo poor men they've had the upper hand all their lives etc but when you try and highlight misogny then criticise an entire group of people based on their sex, you are simply wrong. Sexist, wrong and totally unhelpful to your cause which I presume is for men and women to be equal.

I dont deny sexism against men. I think the way sexism against men in society presents itself very differently, where the pressures of masculinity and the stereotypes expected of men leads to what we see in the higher rates of suicide and MH issues. However, these exact same expectations is exactly why we see other toxic behaviours from men, including the idea that men - even the 'weaker men' - are better than women. Not one single person born male has any idea of what it truly means to be a woman, yet the jealousy and fear of that lack of understanding has come through loud an clear at every stage of history. Even the 'nice guys' don't truly get it, especially now that women have apparently their equality in the western world (hilarious in itself).

Men as a general group dont think women are equal, and after a millenia of being told they are the bigger and better sex, that hasn't magically gone away after women's liberation. In fact, more than ever the stereotypes that women have ladybrains and act accordingly is being perpetuated. For some reason many women are agreeing and laughing along with the 'joke' or taking it seriously and telling us men know just as much about being female as an actual woman does. And those who point out what a farce it is are the ones in the wrong .

@BrumBoo

You're going to tell me that there's no such thing as misandry because boo boo poor men they've had the upper hand all their lives etc but when you try and highlight misogny then criticise an entire group of people based on their sex, you are simply wrong. Sexist, wrong and totally unhelpful to your cause which I presume is for men and women to be equal.

I dont deny sexism against men. I think the way sexism against men in society presents itself very differently, where the pressures of masculinity and the stereotypes expected of men leads to what we see in the higher rates of suicide and MH issues. However, these exact same expectations is exactly why we see other toxic behaviours from men, including the idea that men - even the 'weaker men' - are better than women. Not one single person born male has any idea of what it truly means to be a woman, yet the jealousy and fear of that lack of understanding has come through loud an clear at every stage of history. Even the 'nice guys' don't truly get it, especially now that women have apparently their equality in the western world (hilarious in itself).

Men as a general group dont think women are equal, and after a millenia of being told they are the bigger and better sex, that hasn't magically gone away after women's liberation. In fact, more than ever the stereotypes that women have ladybrains and act accordingly is being perpetuated. For some reason many women are agreeing and laughing along with the 'joke' or taking it seriously and telling us men know just as much about being female as an actual woman does. And those who point out what a farce it is are the ones in the wrong .

I don't disagree with many of your points.

What I , and I think the majority of people disagree with, is the blanket claim that all men are evil and wrong.

I've been burned by men. I still don't believe they're all bad.

Many people on here and in life have husband's, sons, fathers. You just cannot expect the majority of believe to agree with you that all men are bad and see women as lesser. It's such a ludicrous statement to make.

Ijustknowitstimetogo is that offensive to gay men?
Have any complained? Women have never opressed gay men, so its unlikely theyd find Catherine as insulting as it is when men do it to women.

However, if many gay men did complain, do you think Catherine Taye would argue with them and carry on, or apologise and stop?

What do you think she should do in that situation?

On the flip side Brum, no woman knows what it's actually like to be a man.

So no amount of all men are bad or all men have it great and privileged stands true, by your own logic.

@PheasantPlucker1

Ijustknowitstimetogo is that offensive to gay men? Have any complained? Women have never opressed gay men, so its unlikely theyd find Catherine as insulting as it is when men do it to women.

However, if many gay men did complain, do you think Catherine Taye would argue with them and carry on, or apologise and stop?

What do you think she should do in that situation?

Of course it's homophobic.

Women have never oppressed gay men???

You don't think there's any homophobic women?

What an utterly ridiculous statement to make.

I find it unlikely Catherine would apologise and stop, I'm sure complaints were made at the time but homophobia is so internalised in comedy, who cares.

I feel sad for those with gender dysphoria but really hate the whole drag obsession. Only a few people have GD anyway so I don't get the obsession for something which affects so few people.

It's always a stereotype of a woman. Huge breasts high heels, thick makeup, dyed hair etc..they never seem to dress up as a woman wearing jeans with short hair and trainers! I admit I am quite a "girly" dresser myself, love to look feminine, but I hate how the drag thing seems to think we dress and make up gals are the only types of women out there!

@RootyT00t

On the flip side Brum, no woman knows what it's actually like to be a man.

So no amount of all men are bad or all men have it great and privileged stands true, by your own logic.

True