Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

@PheasantPlucker1 I'm sorry to be a pain but you've posted a couple of times since my last one and I think it's worth bumping up my question because I feel like we were having a genuinely productive discussion (rare on the internet!)

My last post:
Thanks for your answer @PheasantPlucker1 I fully agree with you that racism and sexism are not comparable.

Would you agree it's offensive to say "drag shows are the new minstrel shows" and we should, as feminists, agree to work to discourage that sort of equivalency?

XdownwiththisthissortofthingX

No issue with men in dresses or make up. Im getting sick of saying it.

If an man swears he isnt copying women but uses female pronouns for himself... Well no.

A man, such as your friend, is a he. Im not going to pretend you are a she and also simultaneous pretend I dont know youre pretending to be a she.

Thats just gaslighting.

Please keep complaining to the BBC. They’re heavily promoting drag nonstop, and also trans gender ideology, and some of the stuff on the BBC websites is very offensive. If they have to keep logging and writing replies to complaints this does have an effect on what they choose to promote.

As Ru Paul said, it's about rejecting masculinity

Oh if Ru Paul said it . It's nothing to do with rejecting masculinity. Men do what they always do, and be shit to women. Gay men get treated like shit by 'masculine' men, and instead of standing up and saying 'fuck gender and it's stereotypes, being a man has nothing to do with masculinity or being effeminate', they've joined in with it. They are still men, much like you say race and sex are not comparable, neither is sexuality and sex. Gay men, camp men, effeminate men - they're all still men and they all still think women are something lesser.

[quote cinammonbuns]@JuneauBound I am also a black woman who has commented and explained why I find blackface more offensive than drag and don’t believe they should be compared at all. Unsurprisingly nobody has replied to somebody who is actually affected by both these issues.[/quote]
Blackface when it's the black and white minstrels (which I agree is offensive) or blackface done by morris dancers due to the historic use of covering the face with charcoal (hence it being black) hundreds of years ago so they could dance without people knowing who was breaking the strict laws against begging.

Love drag. Beautiful, creative, self expression, freedom to be who you want to be. Playing dress up is totally fine.

if my DS wants to dress up as a superman or as a princess when he's bigger, I'm not gonna stop him ..I'm gonna help him accessorize!

Oh if Ru Paul said it. It's nothing to do with rejecting masculinity. Men do what they always do, and be shit to women. Gay men get treated like shit by 'masculine' men, and instead of standing up and saying 'fuck gender and it's stereotypes, being a man has nothing to do with masculinity or being effeminate', they've joined in with it

Oh yes, if the world's most famous drag queen makes a statement about what drag is about, we definitely should not listen to it...

Juneau I (personally) think they are comparable in terms of one group dressing up to mock a more opressed group.

Not the same, no, but comparably shitty things to do.

However, Im not black. That wasnt my history, my opression, I dont have your experience.

So while my opinion stays the same I respect your opinion that you dont like them compared, and wouldnt continue to do so, or argue that point with you. As a black person, your opinion on blackface is far more valid than mine.
There are black women who disagree with you but thats for them to discuss, not me.

I feel the same about drag. I dont need men to agree with me, or understand. Just respect its not their reality to mock or emulate, and stop.

That feels rather rambling, but I hope you understand what I mean.

When I was a teen my Mum wouldn't allow me to go to pantomimes, she hates drag and sees it as mocking women. I thought she was just behind the times and rolled my eyes. But now I'm older with a teen of my own, I've been to quite a few drag acts in my student days and whilst I laughed along with my friends, I left feeling really uncomfortable, as if I was the butt of the jokes. Now I'm older and worried how mysogyny will still be something my daughter will experience, it depresses me to think people are still going to these acts and laughing along with them. They are caricatures, whose jokes are at the expense of women.

Oh yes, if the world's most famous drag queen makes a statement about what drag is about, we definitely should not listen to it...

No, because he's still a man who knows nothing of being a woman or anything that comes with it. He's a man who appropriates females terms and stereotypes for his own entertainment value. I really dont care what his opinions are, when he and others are brave enough to break effeminate ideology by using male terms whilst using makeup and costume, then I might give a shit.

Gay men get treated like shit by 'masculine' men, and instead of standing up and saying 'fuck gender and it's stereotypes, being a man has nothing to do with masculinity or being effeminate', they've joined in with it

Sorry posted too soon.
Oppressed groups throughout history have a long history of coopting offensive terms etc. No surprises.

No surprise that camp gay men who were and a persecuted for dressing and acting effeminately leaned in and exaggerated themselves.

if my DS wants to dress up as a superman or as a princess when he's bigger, I'm not gonna stop him ..I'm gonna help him accessorize!

It's not the same thing, it's really not. It's a lovely thing to encourage your son to express himself. You aren't encouraging him to pick out female characteristics to emphasise and mock.

Oh yes, if the world's most famous drag queen makes a statement about what drag is about, we definitely should not listen to it..

Listen to it all you want, but a man doesn't get to tell women what they are allowed to be offended by.

And the men behind the makeup do recognise that being a man has nothing to do with being men.

'She' is used in the context of the drag. They do recognise that they are men underneath. It's the whole point. The while point of drag is to say 'fuck you' to gender.

Men wearing dresses and being proud is a fuck you to gender.

Meaning wearing dresses and pretending they are now a "she" is the absolute definition of gender obsession and stereotyping.

No surprise that camp gay men who were and a persecuted for dressing and acting effeminately leaned in and exaggerated themselves.

Again, you use that word 'effeminate'. Gay men, however 'camp' they are, do not have a 'female' personality. The 'exaggeration' of that is not an exaggeration at all otherwise they wouldn't use female words as part of the act.

When society was (quite rightly) forced to start accepting gay men as normal people, straight society still wanted to make these men seem like 'lesser' than real men. How do you make one less than a man? Suggest he's a woman. Many gay men don't want to be seen as similar to women, even with 'camp' personalities - being camp is still not being a woman! The representation in drag is not a big 'fuck you' to toxic masculinity, it's saying 'look, we think women are something lesser as well, don't group us in with that, women are vile!'. These men can dress up and put on makeup without referring to themselves as women, they choose to do so because that's when it turns from them being judged as effeminate to hiding behind a label and getting the 'joke' put on being female rather than a 'camp male'.

What is that ? Lack of empathy , a type of sociopathy?

Or, most likely, they are regular women who differently to you about drag.🤷‍♀️

@PheasantPlucker1 thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate your thoughtful response.

I wonder if it were a white rich woman put on a cockney accent, would you be upset if a white man told you that it's "just as bad as drag Queen story hour"?

It's tough to draw a direct comparison and that example isn't great, but what I'm trying to build on is your point that you shouldn't punch down. By using someone else's cultural trauma to advance their argument, people are punching down similar to the way you say drag queens are.

Anyway, thanks and I hope we can keep having constructive discussions! Feminism is weaker if it only includes the voices of the most advantaged group and equivalencies like these serve to alienate and divide feminism.

They're not pretending to be a she. Theyre calling themselves she for a short while, whilst being on stage. Nobody actually thinks they are a woman. Least of all them. Its not about being a woman, it's about dressing up and singing and putting on a show.

Thanks to this thread I've been on a drag race binge.

Twice I've heard 'I've got balls' jokes. For 3/4 of the show they are out of drag and being very clear that they are not women.

I mentioned earlier that I have been a victim of racism. I didn’t also mention I’ve experienced sexism too because obviously as a woman, that’s a given.

I do not accept being told by other women what I, as a fellow woman, should or should not find offensive in relation to something purportedly directed at me and the group to which I belong.

Your cockney woman point does kind of make sense!

Also agree about the alienation and divide. My family are mostly non-white so it isnt something Im used too, but I have very recently noticed the divide on here between white and black women, and it is something Id like to see an end too, and women working together to support each other.

the thing I find amusing about drag storytime is that I have taken my kids to many, many story times and it was always a female librarian. Reading to the kids, maybe a craft activity. Normal work clothes. Never a male librarian (and in fact the one male librarian was always a little superior when it came to talking to children in the library, didn't really seem to like or relate to them.

And then suddenly it's Drag Storytime and we have men - but it's all about them, about what their wearing, their identity. And they get applauded and praised and lauded for reading to the children.

I would never take my kids to a Drag Storytime because Storytime is not about the clothes and makeup the person is wearing, its about the kids, literacy, learning to love books, and giving exhausted mums someone to go where their kids get entertained for a little while and they can stare into space. Setting aside the sexualised and mocking aspects of drag, it's just so bloody narcissistic!

Theyre calling themselves she for a short while, whilst being on stage

Why though. That's the crux of the issue. You say no one thinks theyre women, yet they get to appropriate female terms as part of their act. They promote gender ideology, they are part of the trans umbrella. You can't have it both ways. If gender exists then they are being female, or playing out a female personality. Or they are just putting on an act and don't need to use 'she' or similar female terms or allude to being female in any way to entertain, they're only doing so to distract from the fact they're males who enjoy dressing up and wearing make-up - and in this sexist society that's only acceptable if you're lesser than a 'proper man'. Either way, they're not breaking any wheels, just perpetuating stereotypes.

even though drag orginates from shakesphere and I wonder if you would be against you kids learning about shakesphere plays in school?

That was a such a weak point.

They had men play women's roles because when weren't allowed to act.

It wasn't "drag" ie men dressing up as an on steroids version of glamourous bombshells with sexualised/smutty pun names and jokes for entertainment.

@BrumBoo

No surprise that camp gay men who were and a persecuted for dressing and acting effeminately leaned in and exaggerated themselves.

Again, you use that word 'effeminate'. Gay men, however 'camp' they are, do not have a 'female' personality. The 'exaggeration' of that is not an exaggeration at all otherwise they wouldn't use female words as part of the act.

When society was (quite rightly) forced to start accepting gay men as normal people, straight society still wanted to make these men seem like 'lesser' than real men. How do you make one less than a man? Suggest he's a woman. Many gay men don't want to be seen as similar to women, even with 'camp' personalities - being camp is still not being a woman! The representation in drag is not a big 'fuck you' to toxic masculinity, it's saying 'look, we think women are something lesser as well, don't group us in with that, women are vile!'. These men can dress up and put on makeup without referring to themselves as women, they choose to do so because that's when it turns from them being judged as effeminate to hiding behind a label and getting the 'joke' put on being female rather than a 'camp male'.

Brum I've found so many of your points on here really thought provoking, across a few threads, even when we don't agree but in the case of the effeminate, I'm not sure I do. I don't think anything and everything can or should be linked to women somehow being seen as a lower class.