To think that vaccination cards are very unfair.

[studychick81]

I can see why they are needed but I think it's very unfair how they are going to be used. I am 39 and have no health issues. I am not sure when I will get the vaccination as I ve read they haven't even decided groups beyond group 9. So, that means it could be ages before I get any normality back in my life like going to restaurants, pubs, concerts and holidays. I am unsure if I should book a holiday in August as I don't know if I will be vaccinated by then.

I am feel quite cross about this and my parents and friends parents (70+) are booking holidays and cruises etc and will get their lives back so much quicker than I will. Yet IMO my age group and below are the ones that have probably made the greatest sacrifices, juggling home schooling, work and studying, financial worries. Everyone I know in the 60+ category have spent their days gardening, knitting and being bored but with little stress and sacrifice, yet they will be the first to get their lives back.

Not only it is likely my age group and below will feel the lasting effects most from this and will likely pay the most for this with tax increases etc, we will be the last to get the benefits of coming out of lockdown. I don't think they should insist on vaccination cards until everyone is vaccinated.

Everyone I know in the 60+ category have spent their days gardening, knitting and being bored but with little stress and sacrifice

Poppycock!

Can I just remind the minority on this thread who think the vaccine passport idea is wrong to sign this petition. At over 190k signatures now and i know more people would sign if they knew of it.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/569957

Where is the one to make it mandatory (subject to fair alternative provisions for medically/mentally diagnosed exemptions) for obvious health and safety benefits?

Nope, I think those who are unvaccinated (as they are waiting to be invited for a vaccination) should be able to make the decision if they would like to go or not, not be told they can't go because they haven't had the vaccination. Along with, and at the exactly the same time as those who are vaccinated when things start opening up. No-one waits or is at the back of the line in terms of getting freedom back.

That would make sense only if the risk was solely individual, rather than collective. Unfortunately we know that’s not the case.

We’re (theoretically) talking about a battle of competing rights between a business owner being able to try to salvage what’s left of their business by opening a few months earlier, but only to vaccinated people to mitigate the risk, and me being able to access those things at exactly the same time as everyone else without having to deal with envy that others are getting nice things a few months earlier than me

The business owner, livelihoods and jobs carry more weight, in my view, than trying to avoid me feeling left out and grumpy. I’d be jealous as fuck. But I don’t think soothing my feelings is worth people losing their jobs or businesses.

As others have pointed out- most of the time it is those young people who are needed to staff the tourist and entertainment sector anyway, so it can't be expected that they work amongst those who are vaccinated whilst not being vaccinated themselves and whilst not having the same freedoms too.

That's what would have to happen to be able to open these industries up, so you could say it's rather selfish that those who are vaccinated to expect that of the typically younger generation who do these jobs to do that.

Actually your suggestion increases the risk to those staff members who have less choice about being there.

We know that there is good and mounting evidence that vaccination drastically cuts transmission. Reducing the number of customers/patrons they need to interact with who aren’t vaccinated would reduce their risk as well.

Where is the one to make it mandatory (subject to fair alternative provisions for medically/mentally diagnosed exemptions) for obvious health and safety benefits?

Well, quite.

Firstly the people who had the most to risk in this pandemic were the older members of our community. They've been the ones (including those with underlying health problems) who have been shut away all day, every day in some cases. Now they've had their vaccinations they're heading out - just like I (58 years old) have been doing for ages.

Secondly, if they are booking holidays, they'll be avoiding the main summer months as they know that families go away then. Like every year, those who can go on holiday in June or September will do so - it's cheaper and quieter.

Thirdly, educate yourself for goodness sake. My DH is 63 and still working. The state pension age (age that you can claim your pension) is 66 years old. As I'm not yet 60 years old my state pension age is 67 years old and there's no longer a 'forced retirement age' which used to be 65 years old (men and women). So, unless you can claim a work pension earlier, you're working until you're 67 years old - not 60!

And finally, what's all the rubbish about your age group 'paying more' for Covid than the 70 year old tax payer you were talking to earlier on? The basic tax rate now is, what, 20%? When I began work in 1979 it was 30% and that was lowered from 35% by Maggie Thatcher! So unless the tax rate increases by 10 or 15% you're not paying anything like the amount of tax paid over their lifetime by the average 70 year old!

And don't forget, all of us who could get out and about in the summer last year were romping off to the beaches, going off to Greece and Spain whilst those who had to shield did exactly that. Did you bleat for them then? No? Then don't bleat now. You'll be out of this soon.

@QueenoftheAir

And really @studychick81 you sound very childish, selfish and whiny to be complaining that 70 year olds are being vaccinated before you.

at no point AT ALL has the OP, or anyone else said this - try reading the thread!

People really seem to be finding it very hard to understand the OP.

She has apologised many times for saying that 60 isn't working age - this was based on her experiences.

She is not saying that nothing should be open until all of us have been offered the vaccination.

She is saying that if bars/restaurants/flights are available, they should be available to everyone, whether or not they had the vaccine, until everyone has been offered it and then vaccine passports would be more acceptable.

She is not arguing with the order in which vaccines are being given out.

I agree with you OP.

She is saying that if bars/restaurants/flights are available, they should be available to everyone, whether or not they had the vaccine, until everyone has been offered it and then vaccine passports would be more acceptable.

And what others are pointing out is the logic underlying that statement - pointing out that waiting until venues can be opened to all, rather than only the vaccinated, could result in them being closed or operating at Covid capacities (rather than full capacity) for longer.

I get that OP wants to live her ideal world where these things aren’t factors. Believe me, I’d love to as well.

@JassyRadlett

She is saying that if bars/restaurants/flights are available, they should be available to everyone, whether or not they had the vaccine, until everyone has been offered it and then vaccine passports would be more acceptable.

And what others are pointing out is the logic underlying that statement - pointing out that waiting until venues can be opened to all, rather than only the vaccinated, could result in them being closed or operating at Covid capacities (rather than full capacity) for longer.

I get that OP wants to live her ideal world where these things aren’t factors. Believe me, I’d love to as well.

No it won't, they can open for everyone ASAP.

It was decided to pursue a lockdown policy , the group this protected the most were the old and vulnerable. The rest of society was also locked down, of course no one wants to catch the virus but the impact upon older generations and the vulnerable is far far greater. Now the vaccination programme is well underway with the elderly and vulnerable mostly vaccinated 。The plans in place for the opening up of society have been laid out. I believe those plans should allow all members of society the same freedom not just the vaccinated, by the time we open up normal like the groups over 60 and the vulnerable will have been vaccinated . Of course people can choose to not go out and mix but there is no case for saying only the vaccinated can enter certain places or do certain things I really cannot see and justification for that point of view.

@Notadramallama OP may have apologised for saying that 60 year olds were retired, however she was extremely derogatory about them "just gardening and knitting", how rude is that?

She's cross with her parents for booking a holiday, even though they had to shield. How can she honestly be cross at her parents going on holiday?

She also has family abroad that she needs to "hug", but only wants to do that in the summer holidays, October or Christmas are too cold for that type of thing.

She can think what she likes but the rules on passports will be decided and be as cross as she likes, but it's not going to change a thing.

And for clarity, I've not had my vaccine, not due it yet, I don't knit but I do garden!

She is saying that if bars/restaurants/flights are available, they should be available to everyone, whether or not they had the vaccine, until everyone has been offered it and then vaccine passports would be more acceptable.

Thing is, as someone of an age which is a risk, and with underlying conditions which put me at moderate risk (clinically vulnerable), if everything just opens up to all & sundry, I am at risk.

The OP sounds selfish and whiny. I think I got over wailing "It's not faaaaaair!" when I was about 10.

@QueenoftheAir so why don’t you continue to shield at home for an extended period of time? You won’t have to worry about what “all and sundry” are doing then

YANBU in principle although you have made some wild assumptions

Agree with @twelly

The young and healthy have had to sacrifice their lives to pander to the elderly and vulnerable this past year. I’m never going to get my early 20s back. Seems like said vulnerable people couldn’t care less about the sacrifices of others judging by this thread.

Ironic considering the rest of us could have gone about our normal lives this past year, whilst the vulnerable could have been forced to self isolate for their own protection. But no, many posters proclaimed that was unfair! Why, it’s just natural selection?

Everyone has their limits, at this point I’d rather be selfish than borderline depressed - you can’t survive life by being a doormat or a people pleaser after all.

Surely it's down to each business/organisation or indeed country to decide? If Greece will only let tourists in who have been vaccinated, that's down to them. Similarly, if cinemas insist on the same, that's their decision.

@Jackie2022

Agree with *@twelly*

The young and healthy have had to sacrifice their lives to pander to the elderly and vulnerable this past year. I’m never going to get my early 20s back. Seems like said vulnerable people couldn’t care less about the sacrifices of others judging by this thread.

Ironic considering the rest of us could have gone about our normal lives this past year, whilst the vulnerable could have been forced to self isolate for their own protection. But no, many posters proclaimed that was unfair! Why, it’s just natural selection?

Everyone has their limits, at this point I’d rather be selfish than borderline depressed - you can’t survive life by being a doormat or a people pleaser after all.

to pander to the elderly?! {shock] Do you even know what the word means? I kind of hope not, as it's a pretty offensive statement otherwise.

No it won't, they can open for everyone ASAP.

Not if the risk of transmission is too high, and the government either won’t allow it, or will only allow it at massively reduced capacity.

Saying ‘they can open for everyone ASAP’ has absolutely no meaning. They can’t. Currently, it’s against the law. When they reopen, it’s likely to be on ‘Covid safe’ guidelines which makes many venues unprofitable.

And if they were given a chance to return to full capacity two months sooner by only admitting vaccinated people, but that meant I couldn’t go for a few months yet (as someone at a similar place in the queue to you) - well, I’d have to be a churlish fucker to say ‘no, I want to be able to go at the same time as everyone else, so fuck your livelihood.’

I agree that vaccination passports are unfair until everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated; and also are potentially risky, as even the vaccinated may not be totally safe until the large majority of the population is vaccinated. And I would certainly not recommend anybody to book a cruise at this stage (even if they can afford it) as it could well be cancelled or long-delayed

However, I am sick and tired of this jealousy by healthy young people toward older or more vulnerable people. I am at moderate clinical risk (group 6 - I would be group 8 on age alone) and am still waiting for my vaccine in an area where they're still going through group 5. Would I like to be more seriously vulnerable in order to have been vaccinated already? Could quite easily have happened! - I had much worse health problems when I was younger than now, which would probably have placed me in group 4 - and I have NO desire to go back to that time just to get an earlier vaccine. By the same token, I would gladly have no clinical vulnerabilities at all, and wait longer for the vaccine.

Young people have not been sacrificing for older people; we've all been sacrificing so as not to overwhelm the NHS (as well as to protect ourselves). Life is not wonderful for the over-60s either- many people in their early and mid-60s are still working, have all the difficulties with working that younger people have; and might suffer serious financial loss if forced into early retirement, or simply unable to carry on with their job. People in their 70s and older may have had to undergo far more restrictions than the healthy younger people, out of fear and prudence if not by law; may have been deprived of most human contact and unable to see their grandchildren for nearly a year; and, if not fit enough to engage in much exercise, .may hardly spend any time outside of the home. Plus the fact that older and more vulnerable people are likely to have been experiencing not so much boredom but extreme fear and anxiety - for themselves and often for still older and more vulnerable relatives- not only about Covid, but about other illnesses possibly going untreated or undertreated in an overburdened health system. And if younger people worry about future tax increases, older people worry about future frozen pensions and increases in care costs.

I'm not saying it's better for younger people; just that it's awful for everyone, and I don't appreciate being regarded as some sort of pampered leech on younger people, nor do I intend to regard my disabled 78-year-old neighbour as some sort of pampered leech on me!

I know some 50/60s are probably still working, I know there will be exceptions but generally 60 isn't working age.

Are you having a laugh? What world do you live in where generally 60 isn’t a working age?! You’re a long time retired if you stop work at 59.

The young and healthy have had to sacrifice their lives to pander to the elderly and vulnerable this past year

Oh good old MN ageism. The last bastion of someone with no argument.

I’m never going to get my early 20s back.

Nor am I - I never really had them! I was chronically ill and on immunosuppressants at that age. Every year was 2020 for me , without modern technology.

That's not typical perhaps; but more people then than now had full adult responsibilities from the age of 16, combined with little career choice.

Young people are unlucky, but so are older people. And the concept of PANDERING to vulnerable people is disgusting!

generally 60 isn't working age.

Huh??? 65 is official retirement age, and nowadays many people work for longer. Maybe in some jobs earlier retirement is common, but not in most.