Friend has completely changed

[Annapops1]

Good evening all, spent a while deciding on whether or not to post this on here but after several sleepless nights I'd really appreciate some advice.

Been friends with 'sarah' for 30 years, very close almost like sisters. Godmother to each others children and always the first person to call in a crisis or with a funny story etc.

We've been chatting about faith / religion and had decided that once lockdown was over we would quite like to go to a modern church and see what it was all about. We checked it out on zoom and all looked great, rock band on stage and young speakers etc. I'm not particularly religious but after loosing my mum I'd like to think that she is still "with us" in some way.

Anyways...my friend called me to say that she'd got chatting to a school mum who goes to the said church and that they'd arranged a walk. All fine. Following the walk friend calls to tell me how amazing mum friend is and that she'd love me to meet her etc. Friend goes on another walk with mum friend, calls me later to say how this mum friend has told her about when she met God and how Harry Potter is evil and encourages children to practice witchcraft.

Fast forward and friend and mum friend have met several more times...each time I get a phone call tell me things along the lines of she has now given her body to Jesus, how she's prayed for me to be filled with God's blood, that she's taken phones off her children as they encourage unsavoury activities etc etc.

This week being half term we met up with our children for a 3 hour walk...I kid you not I got "God" the whole time. Now going back to above, I'm not the anti-christ as I was happy to explore the new church etc but this is on another level. We got to the the highest point and she raised her hands and shouted how she loves Jesus. I was then told that if I didn't accept Jesus into my heart then I'd loose my place in heaven. I tried to change the subject but to no avail.

I literally couldn't wait to get home. This was now 4 days ago and I just don't know what to think. I've not heard from her since and I feel like I've completely lost my friend. She's unrecognisable...the things she's was coming out with to me makes me think she's been practically brainwashed.

Please tell me if you think I am overreacting? If you got this far, well done

Any chance you could bring her along to a church you're interested in, of a milder I'll like CofE or United Reformed? Then she could debate beliefs with qualified theologians but at least respect that they are all Christians trying to do god's will.

If she's been convinced that only her pastor is the true way to Jesus and all other Christians might as well be Satanists, then it's basically a cult and her husband may want to watch where the family's money is going.

Thank you for your reply. My thoughts exactly. I've absolutely no problem in her finding her path and exploring her faith but the things that she is coming out with are just not "normal". Suggesting that anyone in a same sex relationship for example will go to hell because the devil has converted them is just not something I want to be part of.

I got sucked into one like this at 17, having forced into youth group for a few years prior but not believing.

My church split into two and one half went off and started uo an evangelical church with exciting music and dancing and speaking in tongues etc.

Things were shit at home and the church became my family, I went every evening and twice both days at the weekend. I got baptised in a swimming pool. I got my boyfriend to join up....

Then I realised sex wasn't allowed and of course I wasn't willing to give up what I'd already experienced.

I'm now an atheist.

*been forced into a youth group

@yaboo

It sounds like your mate has been sucked into a cult. A rapid conversion like this should set off massive alarm bells.

I know cults who drug and use ECT on their recruits, amongst other things. To achieve similar aims.

Report her to social services anonymously and tell them she's acting really weird and you're concerned for the welfare of the children. It sounds like a shit trick, and it is, but, honestly, it might help her to wake up, and she needs to wake up as soon as possible before she gets sucked in.

A fair proportion of these ultra-religious churches are full of sly, vindictive, evil twats and churches like this are often riddled with nonces. Sure, it's all about Jesus on the outside, but when you scratch the surface you can find such lovely stuff like... sexual slavery, human trafficking, financial exploitation, paedophilia, etc. When they've dragged her away from all her usual forms of social support they may well start using their sly boots tactics to control her life.

Giving her body to Jesus: what, like flirty fishing? Google that. There's loads of ugly shit happening 'in Jesus' holy name', both currently and historically, and anyone with sense runs away fast. All that 'washed in the blood', and 'satan everywhere' shit is a bad sign. Trust me. You need to get her away from that shit pronto.

Wow - that sounds horrendous!

I can understand why people are suggesting social services and Prevent.

ECT = electroconvulsive therapy.

I hope you can find some answer op.

@Graciebobcat

People thing yoga is evil? Jesus wept.

I think that's fairly common. In my area you'd never see a yoga class in a church hall for example. They'll hire the hall out for other exercise classes but make a point of saying not to approach them for yoga classes as the answer will be no.

I know a church like the one the OP describes. Actually I know loads of them, but this one is the most cult like of all. It is on a whole other level. The tithing, the telling their flock how to vote, encouraging them to distance themselves from anyone outside the church, calling God 'daddy'. It's a whole other level. They even attempted to build an entire village around the church, with housing, shops, nursing home etc so that everyone could live as one community, but that's on hold because they ran out of money. And that's barely scratching the surface of it. I gasp in awe at the cult yet know dozens of otherwise normal people who are sucked in.

Perhaps she was vulnerable because of lockdown. I imagine that churches like this have been able to get their rabid claws into people because of what they offer during this time. The -false- sense of community, “social life” she is feeling while being love-bombed by the head hunters is probably really filling that gap for her. Obviously she’s attempting to do the same for you. The pseudo-science BS is just awful. My friend’s newly-widowed mum is currently selling her house to “donate” to a Minister (-crook- who has form for this) to travel the world (Ummmm.... how? We’re in Australia. No planes going anywhere!) and preach the “Word of God”. Never Mind that he’s actually been removed from Hillsong, and other happy clappy groups for preying on vulnerable women and their finances.

This happened to my DH. His best mate from childhood, who was very 'blokey' converted to JW. Became all preachy & refused to sing hymns at our wedding even tho he was best man. DH was so hurt because he'd gone all out as best man for the friend. They also caused trouble for me with the in-laws. Then tried to tell me to stop DH from talking to another friend of his. I told them to bugger off (DH is still friends with him).

DH cut the friendship off & I, of course, got blamed. It's very sad. They've just moved back to town & I'm hoping I don't run into them.

I am from a Catholic family (I am not practicing) I worked with someone who converted late in life to Catholicism and her behaviour was horrendous! Telling people their unbaptised children would not go to heaven etc. She found out I was “Catholic” and she would not let it go about me not attending church, how I was worse then non catholics, it was bloody horrible! I’m not particularly religious and people like that are the reason why

@Annapops1
Ok I feel for you as your friendship has shifted so suddenly and in a direction you never saw coming.

However breaking down what you’ve said...

She shouted that she loved Jesus
She was sharing with you what she prayed (her terminology is off, eg. God’s blood being in her, but I’m putting that down to her being new to the faith)
She’s removed tech off her kids and is rethinking her viewpoint on HP
She would love you to discover what she has and if you don’t she’s worried you won’t go to heaven

So I’m a Christian leader, I lead a church with my husband. So I’m coming from the perspective of seeing people’s lives literally flip upside down when they come to faith. We don’t prey on the vulnerable. Our heart is to help those who have need so often there is some correlation between those who come to us for support and those who begin believing but that is not a strategy or tactic. It comes from a place of wanting to love people and help them, whether they come to faith or not. We’ve also seen people who ‘have it all’ come to faith and their lives also totally change. (This is mainly in response to other posters although I do recognize that not all churches operate with the same level of integrity I don’t want all churches being written off!!)

A question for you about why you’re so concerned about some of her choices eg. taking the phones away etc. If she hadn’t spoken to you about her new found faith would you be concerned if she told you she’d had a change of heart about those things? Steve Jobs himself didn’t let his kids have phones etc.

When she shares her faith with you and her kids, is she forcing anything on you or is she just so excited about what she’s discovered she’s over enthusiastically wanting you to see it too? I get that suggesting you’re not going to heaven can feel offensive BUT if you don’t believe in God why would you want to spend eternity with Him? Not wanting to be antagonistic but I am curious...where do you sit on the after life? If your friends questions get you thinking then isn’t that a good thing? Whether you land where she does or not the discussion is still healthy. You don’t have to agree on everything to be friends.

I would say there are concerns in some of what she’s saying, or rather how things are being phrased, are the, what I would call, legalistic things. There is soooo much more to a relationship with Jesus than the things you ‘can and cannot’ do. We Christians are not the judge and jury of people’s lives, we’re called to love people.

If she does keep on with her faith there will be things that come up which do jar with your way of thinking so I guess it would be good to talk to her about how you are feeling about it. Tell her you were overwhelmed with the conversation on the walk and could you have some space to process and talk about other stuff next time.

[quote ElCaMum]@Annapops1
Ok I feel for you as your friendship has shifted so suddenly and in a direction you never saw coming.

However breaking down what you’ve said...

She shouted that she loved Jesus
She was sharing with you what she prayed (her terminology is off, eg. God’s blood being in her, but I’m putting that down to her being new to the faith)
She’s removed tech off her kids and is rethinking her viewpoint on HP
She would love you to discover what she has and if you don’t she’s worried you won’t go to heaven

So I’m a Christian leader, I lead a church with my husband. So I’m coming from the perspective of seeing people’s lives literally flip upside down when they come to faith. We don’t prey on the vulnerable. Our heart is to help those who have need so often there is some correlation between those who come to us for support and those who begin believing but that is not a strategy or tactic. It comes from a place of wanting to love people and help them, whether they come to faith or not. We’ve also seen people who ‘have it all’ come to faith and their lives also totally change. (This is mainly in response to other posters although I do recognize that not all churches operate with the same level of integrity I don’t want all churches being written off!!)

A question for you about why you’re so concerned about some of her choices eg. taking the phones away etc. If she hadn’t spoken to you about her new found faith would you be concerned if she told you she’d had a change of heart about those things? Steve Jobs himself didn’t let his kids have phones etc.

When she shares her faith with you and her kids, is she forcing anything on you or is she just so excited about what she’s discovered she’s over enthusiastically wanting you to see it too? I get that suggesting you’re not going to heaven can feel offensive BUT if you don’t believe in God why would you want to spend eternity with Him? Not wanting to be antagonistic but I am curious...where do you sit on the after life? If your friends questions get you thinking then isn’t that a good thing? Whether you land where she does or not the discussion is still healthy. You don’t have to agree on everything to be friends.

I would say there are concerns in some of what she’s saying, or rather how things are being phrased, are the, what I would call, legalistic things. There is soooo much more to a relationship with Jesus than the things you ‘can and cannot’ do. We Christians are not the judge and jury of people’s lives, we’re called to love people.

If she does keep on with her faith there will be things that come up which do jar with your way of thinking so I guess it would be good to talk to her about how you are feeling about it. Tell her you were overwhelmed with the conversation on the walk and could you have some space to process and talk about other stuff next time.[/quote]
Thank you for your reply. I respect your prospective and take on board what you have said. To clarify, I don't have a problem with anyone's faith or chosen path. What I do have any issue and concern with is the sudden shift on her view point regarding certain things. For example, homosexually is evil and they'll go to hell, the fact that social media is the work of the devil, that anyone who doesn't believe in her new found faith will go to hell ie Muslims, Hindus etc....I just don't get how a loving God would want his followers to be so extreme and judgemental of others.

I believe that everyone has their own right to have their own faith without shoving it on others and also to have an understanding and respect for how others choose to live their lives.

This happened to my mother and sister.
Both were "born again" into a Baptist/Hillsong type church.
Saw evil everywhere.
My sister wouldn't allow her children to listen to radio or watch TV, all reading material had to have christian content. Harry Potter/fairies - all satanic.
Sent her kids to a Baptist school. Only met with other christians.
It's not MH, is is an example of the power of indoctrination.

You just have to stand back OP.
My mother did fall away from the fruit loop stuff, she is still a strong christian, but her ideas are a little more mellow these days.
My sister is lost forever we don't even speak. She thinks the devil is inside me.

Couple of things.

You sound like a loving friend. Please continue to love your friend in whatever way you are able to.

You've obviously realised that this particular church is not for you. How about you continue looking for a church that you feel comfortable in attending. As well as this being something you can do for yourself, it also might help in leading to lots of conversations with your friend about your own experiences and help her realise what is normal and what is not.

It sounds like your friend has been sucked into a cult. I would have to take a step back from someone like that because I would find those views too offensive to listen to. Is your husband friends with hers and be able to see what he thinks? Ultimately if she can’t be rescued from this toxic environment then it would be really hard to stay friends

Did your friend have any previous exposure to a more mainstream Christian church?

I’m an atheist now but was brought up in a well-established Methodist church. Most congregation members (and the ministers!) wouldn’t take the Bible literarily and were perfectly ok reconciling science and evolution with their faith.

When I was 16 I did a student exchange to Texas. A whole tranche of us ended up with families who went to the same Assembly of God mega church in DFW. Looking back, I believe it was a deliberate proselytism attempt, run by one the church members who had ties with the student exchange organisation.

There were about 10 of us and only myself and one other boy who was Catholic, had had any sort of religious upbringing. By the end of the year, the other 8 students had been fully brainwashed and were born-again fanatics. They must have had a terrible time going home to their families and finding themselves again. The Catholic boy and I were sceptical and quite horrified with it all.

My point is, teenagers and adults who are not brought up with a taste of garden variety Christianity seem particularly vulnerable to the happy clappy evangelical churches. They have nothing to compare the all intensive mind fuck these churches do on people.

That’s not to say that everyone should expose their children to moderate Christianity! I just can clearly see how those with no religious background are very vulnerable to these types of things.

@Annapops1

Thank you for your reply. My thoughts exactly. I've absolutely no problem in her finding her path and exploring her faith but the things that she is coming out with are just not "normal". Suggesting that anyone in a same sex relationship for example will go to hell because the devil has converted them is just not something I want to be part of.

I think when she says these things you should try to calmly say that many Christians don't believe this.

However if she is adamant and vocal about these views then unfortunately you may have to limit your family's exposure to her harmful views .

I really feel sorry for you but for whatever reason your friend has chosen this path and you may have to accept it.

These churches are a lot more common than people realise. But we tend not to see so much of them because the people there are usually fairly wel established so if they talk to you about finding God etc when you first get to know them you invariably give them a wide birth.

But when someone close to you is converted then the change is incredibly powerful and noticeable.

Go and look up Kenneth Copeland as a prime example. He is what you might call one of those extreme evangelists. Talks about how people should give themselves to God, how he can only travel by private jet because commercial planes are just “tubes full of demons”, how people should live with modest means, although should still tithe to his church, after all he must not lose the £3bn he is worth because it’s the will of God.

Darren Brown did a thing about how these churches convert people, and he actually ran a session where he showed how it was done, and converted a group of atheists (he did set them straight at the end...)

My DP used to be a member of one of these churches, although he says that there were some things he was very uncomfortable with. But he told me a story once about how there was this prayer meeting, and people were praying and speaking in tongues etc when suddenly there was a noise like a dog bark in the church. And people started falling on the ground and crying out that the lord was among them and hallelujah etc. Turns out one of the members was a puppy walker for guide dogs and the puppy barked and brought about this state. 😂😂😂

Theres nothing you can do. My mother was part of a fanatical church with many restrictions. Just leave her to it. She may ine day realise, she may not. Just wait for that text/phonecall if she does reach out.

All you can do is be there for her when it all falls apart. Unfortunately it will. I went to a similar 'modern' evangelical church for a few months, impressed by how friendly everyone was, and ended up being kicked out when they found out I'd gone on holiday with my boyfriend (pre-marital sex....the horror!!). One false step by your friend and they'll be down on her like a ton of bricks. It's awful.

It sounds as if she's been completely brainwashed. I'd definitely talk to her husband.

Extreme fanatic Christianity bears no resemblance to normal Christianity. You wouldn't accuse all Muslims of being suicide bomb wearing ISIS members would you? You need to understand that your friend has fallen prey to a fringe group of extremists and that this is not Christianity.

People tend to fall under the spell of religious or political extremism if they are lonely/uneducated/mentally fragile/isolated etc - it's how people are radicalised. There are probably a lot of people being radicalised - whether to extreme Far Right groups, extreme religiously zealous groups - because of the isolation imposed by Lockdown.

@Beautiful3

Theres nothing you can do. My mother was part of a fanatical church with many restrictions. Just leave her to it. She may ine day realise, she may not. Just wait for that text/phonecall if she does reach out.

Also, if you get that call, you might want to ignore it, and that's fine too.

All you can do is be there for her when it all falls apart. Unfortunately it will.

Or perhaps not.

My sister was "born again" in her 20s, she is still a fervent fanatical Baptist 40 years later.

Oh and l meant to add OP she is lucky she has a great friend like you looking out for her and recognising what she has got herself into.
Good luck with it all, hope you get your "old" friend back.

@RuledbyASD - sorry SM, meant Stepmother, I can see that’s not clear from what I said, I definitely do not have a church personally.

And yes to the PP who talked about the Holy Spirit striking them down. When I was dragged along to church as a child/teen that terrified me. People screeching in “tongues” and collapsing all over the floor then 10 minutes later being absolutely fine, frightening friendly and offering me a cup of tea.