We did not end freedom of movement. The only people we ended fom for is ourselves and our children.

[Kendodd]

I don't know why we would celebrate this.
The children of our EU friends living here still have their fom, when they leave school they'll be free to live and work in any one of 31 countries (I'm pleased for them) our children won't be. I've heard 'EU passport holder' is starting to appear on CVs now as it makes people a more attractive employee in certain sectors.

Oh and I grew up in one of the most deprived areas in the country on state benefits attending a failing school. I made use of fom in my youth and it gave me opportunities young people in my situation won't have anymore. It's not just for rich people.

@turquoisewaters

there were s lot of happy fishermen after the first exports were made

Good to see that there's progress already and it's hardly Armageddon as per some predictions here

Not Armageddon.

The measure of a successful country!

I have to admit, as much as I love seafood, I won't mourn the loss of our fishing industry, it does terrible environmental damage. Hopefully green industries around our coasts will replace the jobs.

And as for poorly trained overseas doctors. Governments of many colours over the years have made the calculation that it's cheaper to import medics than to train them. We have had a shortfall of doctors for DECADES. What we need in to massively increase training (instead of taking away funding). Can't see it happening though, all talk sees to be just get developing world medics. This is shameful. And quite frankly, personally, if it was a choice between a poorly trained doctor setting my broken leg or no doctor, I'd take the poorly trained.

We have had a shortfall of doctors for DECADES. What we need in to massively increase training

I completely agree with this. There's so many talented and intelligent young people in the UK who would make brilliant doctors.

And quite frankly, personally, if it was a choice between a poorly trained doctor setting my broken leg or no doctor, I'd take the poorly trained

The problem is that a poorly trained doctor has the potential to cause more harm than the original ailment they were consulted for.

The additional funding for training could be obtained from the savings the NHS would make from not having to put things right after substandard doctors mess up.

What I was also trying to illustrate with that example is that the EU were (already in 2015) planning to issue e-cards to doctors so that they could practice anywhere in the EU (and it's likely we would have had to accept them in principle, when we were already seeing deaths related to malpractice). So FOM can be positive sometimes, but not always

We could bring in properly qualified doctors from abroad on temporary visas (many would find the prospect of work experience in the UK appealing?) while we train our own?

@turquoisewaters

We could bring in properly qualified doctors from abroad on temporary visas (many would find the prospect of work experience in the UK appealing?) while we train our own?

Oh yes, a vast pool of skilled people across the world, just dying to come to the UK, only to booted out when no longer required? having paid '000s for visas and health cover.

Where are the millions of highly educated school children needed to replace foreign skilled workers going to come from? we have just haven't the numbers leaving school.

Poorly trained EU doctors/nurses is tbh a non issue, the vast vast majority are highly trained and committed.
Far more scandals by UK healthcare staff than EU ones.

You are just scare mongering.

What I was also trying to illustrate with that example is that the EU were (already in 2015) planning to issue e-cards to doctors so that they could practice anywhere in the EU (and it's likely we would have had to accept them in principle, when we were already seeing deaths related to malpractice).

But even if in the EU checking/validating of qualifications is possible at a national level.

FWIW as a parallel for many years EASA were issuing licences that allowed pilots to fly anywhere in the EU... however that didn't mean you could get a license issued in say the Netherlands on a Friday and then thanks to FOM you could rock up in the UK and start flying passengers on the Monday -

Individuals flying commercially were subject to local checking/testing on arrival, usually done by the employer at the behest of the national regulator, some of which was sometimes overseen by inspectors from the national regulator...

I don't think you can pin the blame on "rogue doctors" operating in the UK solely on the EU or some EU issued e-card if the UK has no system in place for validating foreign licences/qualifications at the national level.

@turquoisewaters Medical training in many countries of the EU is amongst the best in the world. How many incidents in the UK involving doctors recruited from the EU have there been, and what was the root cause of the issue? How many from doctors trained in the UK and other countries?

We will still seek to recruit medical staff globally as we have acute shortages. Where do you think the medics will come from?

Such simplicity in damning recruitment from the EU as being bad? Perhaps the recruitment process here in the UK is at fault and has it's part to play in effectively monitoring qualifications & level of experience of those it recruits?

Do you imagine that now we are out of the EU, we will no longer have malpractice or mistakes?
Very naive, and simplistic.

Oh yes, a vast pool of skilled people across the world, just dying to come to the UK

Some would be very willing to come to the UK for work experience, absolutely.

That's what this this thread is about ultimately, isn't it? Moaning because children will no longer be able to do work experience abroad (in the EU)?

I don't think you can pin the blame on "rogue doctors" operating in the UK solely on the EU or some EU issued e-card if the UK has no system in place for validating foreign licences/qualifications at the national level

Of course not, but it's likely that there would have been a massive amount of pressure by the EU for doctors holding these e-cards to be accepted by all members (back to the issue of trying to encroach on sovereignty)

@turquoisewaters You use the words likely, would, could. Not much 'is'. You speak from your imagination, not factual reality. And sovereignty - again!

That's what this this thread is about ultimately, isn't it? Moaning because children will no longer be able to do work experience abroad (in the EU)

You are suggesting people come here for 10 plus years whilst we train our own folk to become dr's etc and then boot them out, having charged them a fortune in visa's and healthcare fees.....

Hardly what we had with FOM is it?

Ignoring the idea that British trained doctors never commit malpractice, foreign doctors can and do want to do a couple of years in an English speaking country to practice English, of course they do. I expect they'll still want to but the costs associated will make it slightly less attractive. Ireland will benefit a lot!

In any case, even taking @turquoisewaters concerns as gospel, if we were in the EU we may have pressure to accept the qualifications but we would also HAVE A SAY AND A VETO. Now we have to accept what we're given or walk away nurse-less.

(And it would be lovely to have a good homegrown crop of nurses but with the amounts they're expected to pay for a low salary the govt refuses to increase because the clapping was enough thanks...)

That's the entirety of Brexit. Nobody is calling it Armageddon. The dramatic language is from Brexit supporters. At its best, it's slightly worse - that's why people are so frustrated and crying out to be given examples of how it can be better.)

REAL examples, like Clavinova's nine new post-brexit jobs she found.

@turquoisewaters

"@turquoisewaters Medical training in many countries of the EU is amongst the best in the world. How many incidents in the UK involving doctors recruited from the EU have there been, and what was the root cause of the issue? How many from doctors trained in the UK and other countries?"

I'd be interested to know this too, the only example I can think of a doctor with notorious mortality rates is Harold Shipman!

having charged them a fortune in visa's and healthcare fees

We can always subsidise these. We need to think outside the box

How many incidents in the UK involving doctors recruited from the EU have there been

Please read the Guardian article. I'm contributing links but people don't want to read them (and then kick a fuss because I don't give examples)

Thank you @turquoisewaters I found it, it was lost amongst the fish.

It's very sad about the death, but to put it into context, apparently (it is daily mail but then if you're allowed to post guardian...!) David Davis (Tory) published a report claiming that 40 000 patients die every year as a result of mistakes by NHS staff, of which he thinks half could have easily been prevented by tougher safety measures. Highlighting three negligent European doctors in this background is akin to moaning that your mattress is uncomfortable on the titanic.

And the key line for me from your article is:

"Host states including the UK remained responsible for taking the decision on issuing the EPC."

Your article is five years old when that line was still true. We could take that decision. We were safer then than now.

@turquoisewaters FFS I have never based any level of knowledge on a single press article. Does it include incidents with medical staff trained in the UK or non-EU trained staff? Does it have that balance? Or is it just the woo stuff focussing on EU medics that drew you to it?

Still no benefits then!

Regarding the doctors point, this one is particularly ridiculous in my opinion.

A UK based lawyer couldn't take up a job as a lawyer in an EU country even with FOM because the legal systems are different, they would require different training to be able to work.

For medicine in the UK we have our own governing body the GMC. if the EU doctors didn't meet the GMC standards at the point of entry they shouldn't have been allowed to work here. That is not an EU problem it is a problem with our system if we allowed rogue doctors to work here.

Of course not, but it's likely that there would have been a massive amount of pressure by the EU for doctors holding these e-cards to be accepted by all members (back to the issue of trying to encroach on sovereignty)

What a load of tosh.

Maybe worth checking the status of “e-cards” mentioned in a 5 year old article before touting them as the EU foisting them on member states? (Clue - they don’t cover doctors).

And worth remembering that health is a shared competency between the EU and member states, but member states have the primary competency and the EU’s role is in supporting those national public health policies?

And perhaps worth checking how doctors, nurses and midwives do obtain a licence to practice in the UK? (Hint - they have to supply recognised qualifications and demonstrate suitable experience to the GMC or NMC).

Poorly trained EU doctors/nurses is tbh a non issue, the vast vast majority are highly trained and committed.

Completely agree.
No reason to think British doctors are somehow better. Why would anyone even think that?

What Kendodd just re-quoted and said.

Just look at UK cancer survival rates, the Stafford maternity and Southern metal health scandals?

There are plenty more too but lets take one example of an EU doctor who gave very bad treatment and then use that as a reason to leave the EU......

UK cancer survival rates

What do you mean by this? Is it only UK trained doctors treating cancer (hence to blame)?

@turquoisewaters

We have had a shortfall of doctors for DECADES. What we need in to massively increase training

I completely agree with this. There's so many talented and intelligent young people in the UK who would make brilliant doctors.

And quite frankly, personally, if it was a choice between a poorly trained doctor setting my broken leg or no doctor, I'd take the poorly trained

The problem is that a poorly trained doctor has the potential to cause more harm than the original ailment they were consulted for.

The additional funding for training could be obtained from the savings the NHS would make from not having to put things right after substandard doctors mess up.

What I was also trying to illustrate with that example is that the EU were (already in 2015) planning to issue e-cards to doctors so that they could practice anywhere in the EU (and it's likely we would have had to accept them in principle, when we were already seeing deaths related to malpractice). So FOM can be positive sometimes, but not always

It is sad that it used to be free to train as a healthcare professional in the UK but this was scrapped e.g. physio, nurse