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We did not end freedom of movement. The only people we ended fom for is ourselves and our children.

753 replies

Kendodd · 20/02/2021 11:34

I don't know why we would celebrate this.
The children of our EU friends living here still have their fom, when they leave school they'll be free to live and work in any one of 31 countries (I'm pleased for them) our children won't be. I've heard 'EU passport holder' is starting to appear on CVs now as it makes people a more attractive employee in certain sectors.

Oh and I grew up in one of the most deprived areas in the country on state benefits attending a failing school. I made use of fom in my youth and it gave me opportunities young people in my situation won't have anymore. It's not just for rich people.

OP posts:
jasjas1973 · 25/02/2021 19:39

[quote turquoisewaters]To all Remainers:

Do you think people dying because of the UK having to accept qualifications from EU doctors is a benefit of remaining in the EU?

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/17/gmc-calls-tougher-powers-check-european-doctors-skills[/quote]
Shocking isn't?
In 2014, 267,000 doctors were on the UK medical register, of whom about 237,900 had a licence. A third of those licensed had done the bulk of their medical training outside the UK, showing just how much the country relies on foreign doctors

Why has the UK run down its Doctor training (and nursing) to such low levels, its reliant on overseas staff???

notimagain · 25/02/2021 19:44

[quote turquoisewaters]To all Remainers:

Do you think people dying because of the UK having to accept qualifications from EU doctors is a benefit of remaining in the EU?

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/17/gmc-calls-tougher-powers-check-european-doctors-skills[/quote]
Not just "EU doctors" though is it?

www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/fake-indian-origin-doctor-jailed-for-knife-attack-on-family-in-uk-120020402034_1.html

www.odt.co.nz/news/national/kiwi-jailed-after-working-fake-doctor-uk

Looks like a problem with the way the UK authorities have been vetting applicants.

Clavinova · 25/02/2021 19:54

QuentinInQuarantino
@ Clavinova I don't have the time you have to debunk it all.
there are plenty of websites you could check. Fullfact is a good one. I'm a keyworker - I teach sixth form - and quite busy.

I'm not sure your keyworker status excuses you from not checking any facts at all. I linked to FullFact up thread;
2018 Employment has increased by around 450,000 since May to July 2016.
fullfact.org/economy/more-people-work-brexit-vote/

All I really want is an explanation of why sovereignty is worth ANY job loss - or even just my sister's.

Did you post what industry/sector your sister works in and when she lost her job? Perhaps I missed it.

As a teacher (and someone who cares about job losses) you wouldn't want to see the Labour Party in government then, if they carry through on a suggested policy of abolishing private schools - on account of the obvious job losses in the independent school sector? (Labour delegates voted to abolish private schools at the party conference in 2019). Several close members of my family work in the independent school sector - but I suppose they would just have to accept the result of any government policy that didn't go their way?

One of the other 'job losses' on your list (quoted as 10,000 jobs) relates to Elon Musk's comment that Brexit uncertainty made it too risky for him to consider building a Gigafactory in the UK. We might be getting two or three Gigafactories after all (creating thousands of new jobs) - one of them possibly involving Elon Musk:

www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/elon-musk-tesla-uk-gigafactory-5016869

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-9152387/Britishvolt-gigafactory-tie-Siemens.html

www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/354308/plans-second-uk-battery-gigafactory-be-built-coventry

Not forgetting this as well;
23 July 2017
Jeremy Corbyn: “wholesale” EU immigration has destroyed conditions for British workers.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/07/jeremy-corbyn-wholesale-eu-immigration-has-destroyed-conditions-british

Clavinova · 25/02/2021 19:56

Eg: the membership of the European Environment Agency obliged the UK to work towards a certain level of air pollution.

December 2018 -
The Italian town where the air is lethal

When a southerly blows into town, the schools have to close; sometimes as often as five days a month. In 2010, the local council issued an order that prohibited children from playing outside because of soil contamination. The local college of surgeons publicly recommended children shower every time they come in from outside.

www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-06/ilva-steelworks-taranto/10490868?nw=0

turquoisewaters · 25/02/2021 20:00

Do you not worry that the UK will use its sovereignty to make things worse

No, this is an extremely pessimistic view

Clavinova · 25/02/2021 20:06

UK leads the way on climate change: can Ireland match its ambition?

www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/uk-leads-the-way-on-climate-change-can-ireland-match-its-ambition-1.3883517

UK sets ambitious new climate target ahead of UN Summit

www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-sets-ambitious-new-climate-target-ahead-of-un-summit

QuentinInQuarantino · 25/02/2021 20:16

@turquoisewaters

Do you not worry that the UK will use its sovereignty to make things worse

No, this is an extremely pessimistic view

It is pessimistic yes but i find it terrifying to rely on optimism as a form of governance. Optimism is fabulous but with some just-in-case checks, balances and minimum standards. Great if we supersede them as we've always been able to do. A safety net if we don't.

@Clavinova where do you suppose the private school kids will go of private schools are closed? And why do you presume to know who I vote(d) for?

(Btw - I do not have to explain myself you you at all but I could see you've taken some time to research and felt apologetic I didn't have time to wade through, no need to be so rude.)

QuentinInQuarantino · 25/02/2021 20:21

@Clavinova - yes, that's terrible, so isn't it great that Italy is in the EU and so have been taken to court over this? If they weren't in the EU, they would be able to continue getting away with it.

link for you

QuentinInQuarantino · 25/02/2021 20:23

Fabulous news about the UK's climate change targets, but nothing to do with Brexit.

Clavinova · 25/02/2021 20:39

QuentinInQuarantino
Clavinova where do you suppose the private school kids will go if private schools are closed?

Clearly the government doesn't have a budget of £15,000 - £40,000 per secondary school pupil/up to £15,000 per primary school pupil. Thousands of teachers, SLT, specialist educational providers, boarding school staff, groundsmen/women, sports coaches, catering staff - (who cater for match teas, parents' events, speech days, exhibitions, lectures etc.) will be unaffordable and therefore redundant.

And why do you presume to know who I vote(d) for?

I didn't - I haven't a clue.

Lonelycrab · 25/02/2021 20:40

Clav it’s all very well with your moon on a stick eco revolution but

Words are cheap, to make a decent impact on the amount of energy we use will take a lot of planning. David Cameron went and sat with some seals up in the arctic but it didn’t really get us anywhere Hmm

turquoisewaters · 25/02/2021 20:45

Looks like a problem with the way the UK authorities have been vetting applicants

Possibly, but in the case of the EU, the problem is made worse. From the Guardian article:

^There are fears the system of checking doctors’ skills, competence and medical background could be made worse with the proposed European professional card (EPC), which will shorten the time taken to register doctors, according to the GMC.

This is to be introduced for nurses, pharmacists, physiotherapists, estate agents and mountain guides from January. Cards for doctors are expected to follow in 2018. The GMC said there must first be a full independent assessment of how the e-cards for the professions have worked, even though other checks, including of language ability, will still be undertaken before a licence to practise in the UK is issued^

So, this is an example of attempts by the EU to further undermine sovereignty.

FOM can also be detrimental, not everything is positive (and back in 2015 it seems to have resulted in someone's death). I'm going by what the article says here, I'm not a doctor.

turquoisewaters · 25/02/2021 20:49

Regulator’s chief executive says EU rules still have major weaknesses and moves to introduce digital ‘passports to practise’ could make matters worse

ListeningQuietly · 25/02/2021 20:49

@Clavinova
Do you have any good pro brexit links about water quality for Shellfish farmers ?

Clavinova · 25/02/2021 20:51

QuentinInQuarantino
yes, that's terrible, so isn't it great that Italy is in the EU and so have been taken to court over this? If they weren't in the EU, they would be able to continue getting away with it.

They have been getting away with it for years - from your link;

From 2008 to 2017, "the daily and annual limit values for PM10 particulate matter were very regularly exceeded'' in several Italian cities, the court said.

The ECJ concluded that Italy has "manifestly failed" to adopt timely measures to tackle pollution as required by the timeframe set out in the EU law on clean air.

Tuesday's ruling ends the first cycle of the infringement procedure started by the European Commission against Italy in 2014.

Fabulous news about the UK's climate change targets, but nothing to do with Brexit.

I thought you started the discussion about environmental standards.

justab0utsurviving · 25/02/2021 20:58

@Kendodd so it is random trolls on the internet saying it, not actual people in real life. People say all sorts of crap online.

DoubleTweenQueen · 25/02/2021 21:04

@Clavinova It was Italy's responsibility, as a sovereign nation, to police their own air quality. There are a number of member states currently also in violation.
Is it not a positive thing, that the member states of the EU agreed to a level of air quality to support citizen’s health and the quality of the environment, and to give the Commission the legal footing to call out and then prosecute any nation’s government that fails to keep up to those standards?

QuentinInQuarantino · 25/02/2021 21:09

They have been getting away with it for years yes, and goodness knows how many more if not for the EU.

It's late here, goodnight. Good luck digging that hole.

DoubleTweenQueen · 25/02/2021 21:13

The UK was referred to the ECJ in 2018 (along with France, Germany, Romania & Hungary) for failing to respect limit values for nitrogen dioxide. I wonder what will happen now we’ve left?

Clavinova · 25/02/2021 21:34

ListeningQuietly
Do you have any good pro brexit links about water quality for Shellfish farmers?

These links might interest you:

13 February 2021
Can bivalve aquaculture prevent the “widespread institutional failure” of our attempts to tackle climate change?

Bivalve mollusc farming and microalgal farming enterprises provide viable, profitable and sustainable alternatives to all the industrial carbon dioxide capture and storage technologies being promoted today.

Published on 2 February [2021] this detailed review was commissioned by the UK Treasury in 2019 – the first time a nation’s finance ministry has authorised a full assessment of the economic importance of Nature.

thefishsite.com/articles/can-bivalve-aquaculture-prevent-the-widespread-institutional-failure-of-our-attempts-to-tackle-climate-change

22 February 2021
First oyster exports since Brexit save historic Fal Fishery from doom.

With the help of Cornwall Council and Falmouth Port Health Authority, Falcatch had its depuration tanks approved for cleaning scallops and oysters. As a result, it made its first export on February 10, followed by another on February 12 and a substantial export similar to pre-Brexit levels on Thursday, February 18.

“We are a small company who process and transport our own product directly into the EU. We have a large number of suppliers and fishermen who depend on us to support them and find markets for their hard-got fish and we felt it was our duty to look after them as part of our close relationship. We have also had great support from our EU customers who desperately want our high quality product.”

there were “a lot of happy fishermen” after the first exports were made.

www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/first-oyster-exports-brexit-save-5025070

2 February 2021
Westcountry Mussels are looking to diversify and minimise the impact of Covid and brexit by planting seaweed.

Westcountry Mussels already has an aquaculture licence running until 2050 to use an area of St Austell Bay to grow and harvest mussels.

With the impact Brexit and Covid have had on trade especially in exporting to its main market for shellfish that is the EU, the Fowey business is looking at ways to diversify.

The firm has now filed an application to the Marine Management Organisation to change its mussels ropes for seaweed ones.

The firm said cultivating seaweed is a perfectly legitimate use of the sea for an aquaculture business and it will not have any greater impact than its mussels harvesting activity as it would be in the same spot in St Austell Bay.

Gary Rawle, from the company said: “Given the recent circumstances, such as the impact Covid has had and further significant changes brought on by Brexit, we plan to cultivate native seaweed species as an integral part of current licensed mussel operations. This would enable product diversification. And would make it easier to future-proof our business.”

Under the plan, which has received support from both Exeter and Plymouth universities, existing longlines will be used for seaweed cultivation and all current operations on the site will remain unchanged in terms of equipment, methods and time on site.

Mr Rawle added: “We have a successful history of collaborating with local universities and research institutes to collect important information related to mussel farming, lobster hatcheries and the wider marine environment. We will collaborate again to assess the impacts and benefits of seaweed farming.”

www.inyourarea.co.uk/news/mussels-producer-to-plant-seaweed-instead-to-find-new-markets-post-covid-and-brexit/

turquoisewaters · 25/02/2021 21:54

there were s lot of happy fishermen after the first exports were made

Good to see that there's progress already and it's hardly Armageddon as per some predictions here

DoubleTweenQueen · 25/02/2021 21:57

Progress on mitigating the negative impacts?

ListeningQuietly · 25/02/2021 22:04

Clavinova
so nearly 5 years after the vote they are finally dealing with the issue

bodes well

LostToucan · 25/02/2021 22:16

@Clavinova

Falcatch had its UK depuration tanks approved for cleaning scallops and oysters prior to export.

How does that link to UK water quality, other than prove it is of inadequate quality for shellfish production without additional processing to make them fit for human consumption?

And West Country Mussels - giving up on farming mussels because of Brexit export issues to produce seaweed instead?

10th Feb 2021:

Mussel producer swapping to seaweed because EU won't buy his shellfish

A mussels producers is looking to plant seaweed instead because the EU will no longer buy his mussels post-Brexit. Westcountry Mussels already has an aquaculture licence running until 2050 to use an area of St Austell Bay to grow and harvest mussels.

www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/mussel-producer-swapping-seaweed-because-4960036

Doesn’t seem like a great advert for either UK water quality or Brexit?

jasjas1973 · 25/02/2021 23:06

From your link Clav......“Brexit has made exporting a lot more complicated and expensive but not impossible if you have a backbone and determination"

So much for Brexit being a win then.

and..... Stocks are so low that while 100 years ago 800 tonnes of oysters would be landed, last year it was a mere 17 tonnes. He believes leaving oysters to mature longer will improve trade and help an almost-endangered species

Over fishing... again.

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