friend got job she knew I wanted

[fcekinghell]

It may be my own stupid fault, lesson learned but anyway.

I have an industry mentor. Mentors were being offered to people in my field about 2 years ago and I put myself forward as a means to widen my network, find out about new opportunities etc, especially as I wasn't happy where I was at the time.

I got assigned to a woman I will call Debbie. We had a few Zoom calls, emails etc where she gave me some tips and advice on how to move into employers like her own.

For the record, I am more qualified and experienced than Debbie but wanted a mentor to help me into that kind of employer. Debbie told me to keep her posted on my job hunting. Offered to help with my CV and interview skills if I needed it.

Well I got made redundant in Covid. Debbie still working where she is. Then my dream job came up. I excitedly told Debbie, telling her its my dream job. I did the application and asked Debbie what she thought, was there anything missing. She told me it was 'perfect' and 'good luck'.

Well, I didn't get the job. They said they might recruit later in the year and they'll let me know. I've now heard that Debbie got the job.

It feels like a real kick in the stomach. She was my mentor. She knew this was my dream job and jobs like this don't come up often. In fact, really rarely. She knew I was unemployed whilst she was still working. Plus this job is asking for a particular skill which I do not believe she has.

DH and my DM are telling me I am a fucking idiot for speaking to her. I am aren't I? I probably gave her all the answers too!

I'm so upset

It may help you to change the way that you're looking at this.

You did well to reach the final stage interview. They've said that there may be another vacancy in future. You also now have a contact in the company who can advocate for you.

Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

fellrunner85
OP, I deal with senior recruitment a lot, and all your posts have illustrated to me exactly why you didn't get the job.

You need to be thinking what Debbie has that you don't, and how you can work on that before your next interview, rather than focusing on your own assumptions about her experience compared to yours.

OP, if you only take advice from one post on here, you should take it from the one above.

I'm not getting into was Debbie a mentor or not, was it ethical or not. Having been in HR for many years before I retired I didn't always appoint the applicant who had all the bells and whistles but looked for someone who had most of them, whose personality would fit with the team which they would be joining and who I thought had potential.

You really need to get over this - if you insist on talking to people in the industry about Debbie, don't be surprised if it comes back to you in a negative way.

The employer told me they wanted someone with the relevant qualifications and memberships so on the latter point she definitely lied

Have read some of the thread but not all. I think you need to get over yourself a bit. You don’t know she lied - maybe they agreed she would re-join etc. If I heard someone badmouthing someone in this way, they would be crossed off my potential recruitment list.

I can see why you are embarrassed. In an ideal world she would have told you she’d applied but maybe she’d rather not tell people for a variety of reasons. Up to her. She did the absolute bare minimum, and did not suggest any changes to your application. And it clearly was good because it got you the interview. So I think she’s in the clear.

You cannot steal someone’s answers well enough to get through the interview. She as the preferred candidate and it sounds a bit like sour grapes to me.

OP has described her industry as being very niche, but she has already admitted to sounding off to a couple of colleagues about Debbie and will be lucky if this doesn't get back to her. If she goes round kicking up a fuss, making formal complaints, claiming that Debbie only found out about the job from her (she has no proof of this), used her application to improve her own (no proof of this either) and that she is more qualified and a better fit for the role than Debbie (this is OP's opinion, which was clearly not shared by the panel at interview) then she risks embarrassing herself and damaging her future prospects in the industry
This 100%.

I do think it is poor form to agree to look over someone's application when you are interested in the same role,especially if it's a mentor relationship, but some of the advice on this thread is likely to hinder the OP's reputation in a very niche industry.

I do think the nature of this 'mentoring' needs unpicking more though. Was this a formal programme with standards/defined remits? Or was it mentoring in the sense of pairing people up and they have some informal chats and act as a sounding board? When mentors were assigned how did the OP (who is apparently more experienced and more qualified than her colleague) get paired up with Debbie, especially given they seem to be of a comparable level in their careers? Was there a difference in expectations between OP and Debbie about what this mentoring involved?

It seems unfair to assume Debbie has lied. She probably just did better in the interview on the day (it happens). This has happened to me with friends applying for the same job before (also niche industry). You can't take it personally; you need to just work out what it is you need to work on for the next interview (maybe try and get some more detailed feedback?) Yes, Debbie probably should have mentioned it but maybe she only decided to apply after helping you with your application so not sure if that is actually an ethics violation etc.?

@fellrunner85

I think a lot of people are placing too much emphasis on the application form. The application form is essentially just your ticket to the interview. Then, at interview stage, candidates are judged on their performance and appointed accordingly. Debbie seeing the OPs form will have had next to no impact on the recruitment process, in my experience, as the interview is what matters. These references to the OP "showing your hand" therefore demonstrate a pretty poor knowledge of how recruitment works. Debbie will have had to demonstrate her own abilities in interview, using examples from her own career. She can't have cribbed those from the OP's form.

I also think that, if the gulf in experience is as great as the OP believes, the panel went for Debbie based on her "soft" skills - strategic vision, negotiating skills, teamwork, influence, ability to see the bigger picture, blah blah blah. These are all skills the OP suggests she herself did not demonstrate, based on her absolute focus on the technical qualifications for the job.

I would always rather appoint the person who comes across as flexible, motivated and a good team player in interview - even if they might require some training - over the person who comes in, says "I can do this and I've done this for 20 years" and expects to be appointed on that alone.

Excellent post.

Sorry you had a hard year OP. Specifically to this situation, I think you are playing the victim.

You can't report someone for going for the same job as you, even if they are your mentor, boss, or whatever. Regardless, she may just say she let you know.

For someone you selected as a 'mentor' , you have little respect for her ability to succeed. You make it sound like she isn't good enough yet she was good enough for you when you needed help?

Lodge a complaint with their HR. You have an industry code of conduct. Isn’t it wise to let them know they have a dishonest staff member? If it was me I’d say that you feel she’s been dishonest and breached confidentiality. She shouldn’t have reviewed your application and given advice on it if she was applying for the same role. It’s pretty shitty behaviour. Let them know!

This is just such terrible advice

Agree with Binkybix - DO NOT DO THAT.

But I am very sorry to hear about your terrible year, OP. Best of luck with the search.

I'm sorry you are disappointed OP but you have absolutely no evidence that she did anything wrong.

It would have been wrong of her to find out about the job from you and then fill in an application based on your advice and CV but there is absolutely nothing (that I can see) that shows she did that. She probably applied completely independently of you and got lucky. Employers often pick people who are slightly different from the job advert if they see something in them that would add to the company.

I can understand why you’re so disappointed, OP, but it doesn’t really sound as if she did anything wrong. Although she should really have given you a heads-up that she was also applying when you asked her for advice on your CV.

I’m sorry you’ve had such a horrible year, though, and hope things get better for you soon.

@2021optimist

I'm sorry you are disappointed OP but you have absolutely no evidence that she did anything wrong.

It would have been wrong of her to find out about the job from you and then fill in an application based on your advice and CV but there is absolutely nothing (that I can see) that shows she did that. She probably applied completely independently of you and got lucky. Employers often pick people who are slightly different from the job advert if they see something in them that would add to the company.

What you mean there is no evidence that she did anything wrong? She either had already seen the job and didn't tell OP that she wanted to apply too and that it would be inappropriate to look at OP's application or she only decided to apply for the job after OP bought it to her attention. Either is wrong.

@fellrunner85

OP, I deal with senior recruitment a lot, and all your posts have illustrated to me exactly why you didn't get the job.

You need to be thinking what Debbie has that you don't, and how you can work on that before your next interview, rather than focusing on your own assumptions about her experience compared to yours.

This is excellent advice

What you mean there is no evidence that she did anything wrong? She either had already seen the job and didn't tell OP that she wanted to apply too and that it would be inappropriate to look at OP's application or she only decided to apply for the job after OP bought it to her attention. Either is wrong.
But there is a difference between morally wrong/being a bit shitty and a professional wrong that needs raising.

Given that the nature of this so called mentoring is vague and sounds to be quite far removed from what mentoring should be like, the likelihood is professionally the OP hasn't got a case.

If Debbie has been a contact/workfriend and not said she's applying then that's a dishonest thing to do when looking at the OP's application, but if the OP has already told some people in the field and it's a niche area then the OP will probably come off worse if she follows some of the advice on here.

@LolaSmiles

What you mean there is no evidence that she did anything wrong? She either had already seen the job and didn't tell OP that she wanted to apply too and that it would be inappropriate to look at OP's application or she only decided to apply for the job after OP bought it to her attention. Either is wrong. But there is a difference between morally wrong/being a bit shitty and a professional wrong that needs raising.

Given that the nature of this so called mentoring is vague and sounds to be quite far removed from what mentoring should be like, the likelihood is professionally the OP hasn't got a case.

If Debbie has been a contact/workfriend and not said she's applying then that's a dishonest thing to do when looking at the OP's application, but if the OP has already told some people in the field and it's a niche area then the OP will probably come off worse if she follows some of the advice on here.

I think it depends on who OP reports it to. I would agree there's no point mentioning it to the employer but I think it should be brought up with whoever organises the mentoring because as it's not supposed to put the mentee at a disadvantage which it very possibly did in this case.

What you mean there is no evidence that she did anything wrong? She either had already seen the job and didn't tell OP that she wanted to apply too and that it would be inappropriate to look at OP's application or she only decided to apply for the job after OP bought it to her attention. Either is wrong

In your opinion.

If the mentoring is a formal scheme, she may have breeched the guidelines by not declaring an interest.

But that’s really it.

What you mean there is no evidence that she did anything wrong? She either had already seen the job and didn't tell OP that she wanted to apply too and that it would be inappropriate to look at OP's application or she only decided to apply for the job after OP bought it to her attention. Either is wrong.

bloody hell, it's a job. You don't "call" the job because you see the ad first.
Some of these replies are really embarrassing.

When people are moaning about the unfairness of some people being promoted or being managers, I am guessing they are the ones with this ridiculous and childish attitude.

Did Debbie take of the OP's work and passed it as her own to get the job? No. So she did absolutely nothing wrong. You don't even know if she was headhunted for the role - which would sting the OP even more...

or she only decided to apply for the job after OP bought it to her attention

What’s wrong with that?

@SteveBrexit

What you mean there is no evidence that she did anything wrong? She either had already seen the job and didn't tell OP that she wanted to apply too and that it would be inappropriate to look at OP's application or she only decided to apply for the job after OP bought it to her attention. Either is wrong.

bloody hell, it's a job. You don't "call" the job because you see the ad first.
Some of these replies are really embarrassing.

When people are moaning about the unfairness of some people being promoted or being managers, I am guessing they are the ones with this ridiculous and childish attitude.

Did Debbie take of the OP's work and passed it as her own to get the job? No. So she did absolutely nothing wrong. You don't even know if she was headhunted for the role - which would sting the OP even more...

Don't be ridiculous. It wasn't just a case of OP seeing the job first and trying to "call" it. The mentor wouldn't even had seen it if OP hadn't brought it to her attention. Furthermore she didn't tell OP that she intended to apply once she had seen it and even read through OP's application . She used the position of mentor to her advantage and OP's disadvantage.

@TheKeatingFive

or she only decided to apply for the job after OP bought it to her attention

What’s wrong with that?

It is wrong because there was a clear conflict of interest and she should have let OP know about that rather than reading her application.

The mentor wouldn't even had seen it if OP hadn't brought it to her attention

You don’t know that, but even if so, it’s not ‘wrong’

Furthermore she didn't tell OP that she intended to apply

Why was she obliged to?

It is wrong because there was a clear conflict of interest and she should have let OP know about that rather than reading her application.

Clear conflict of interest based on what?

Unless we know the guidelines for the mentor scheme we can’t know that. Assuming it was a formalised process.

Don't be ridiculous. It wasn't just a case of OP seeing the job first and trying to "call" it. The mentor wouldn't even had seen it if OP hadn't brought it to her attention

You don't know this. The OP doesn't know this either. Debbie could've been headhunted; she could've seen it on LinkedIn or Indeed job alerts; she couldve found out about it in any number of ways. Particularly if this industry is as niche as the OP claims, in v which case it would be weirder if Debbie didn't know about it.

This is why work and friendship should be kept separate. The levels of presumption, assumption and emotion being ascribed to Debbie simply applying for a job and getting it are just weird.