friend got job she knew I wanted

[fcekinghell]

It may be my own stupid fault, lesson learned but anyway.

I have an industry mentor. Mentors were being offered to people in my field about 2 years ago and I put myself forward as a means to widen my network, find out about new opportunities etc, especially as I wasn't happy where I was at the time.

I got assigned to a woman I will call Debbie. We had a few Zoom calls, emails etc where she gave me some tips and advice on how to move into employers like her own.

For the record, I am more qualified and experienced than Debbie but wanted a mentor to help me into that kind of employer. Debbie told me to keep her posted on my job hunting. Offered to help with my CV and interview skills if I needed it.

Well I got made redundant in Covid. Debbie still working where she is. Then my dream job came up. I excitedly told Debbie, telling her its my dream job. I did the application and asked Debbie what she thought, was there anything missing. She told me it was 'perfect' and 'good luck'.

Well, I didn't get the job. They said they might recruit later in the year and they'll let me know. I've now heard that Debbie got the job.

It feels like a real kick in the stomach. She was my mentor. She knew this was my dream job and jobs like this don't come up often. In fact, really rarely. She knew I was unemployed whilst she was still working. Plus this job is asking for a particular skill which I do not believe she has.

DH and my DM are telling me I am a fucking idiot for speaking to her. I am aren't I? I probably gave her all the answers too!

I'm so upset

I think a lot of people are placing too much emphasis on the application form.

The application form is essentially just your ticket to the interview. Then, at interview stage, candidates are judged on their performance and appointed accordingly.
Debbie seeing the OPs form will have had next to no impact on the recruitment process, in my experience, as the interview is what matters. These references to the OP "showing your hand" therefore demonstrate a pretty poor knowledge of how recruitment works. Debbie will have had to demonstrate her own abilities in interview, using examples from her own career. She can't have cribbed those from the OP's form.

I also think that, if the gulf in experience is as great as the OP believes, the panel went for Debbie based on her "soft" skills - strategic vision, negotiating skills, teamwork, influence, ability to see the bigger picture, blah blah blah. These are all skills the OP suggests she herself did not demonstrate, based on her absolute focus on the technical qualifications for the job.

I would always rather appoint the person who comes across as flexible, motivated and a good team player in interview - even if they might require some training - over the person who comes in, says "I can do this and I've done this for 20 years" and expects to be appointed on that alone.

She's not unreasonable for going for the job but she should have told you and not taken your CV etc, that was sneaky

You also need to remember the other factors employers take on board such as confidence, whether they will fit into the team/company, willingness to learn, strong work ethic, positive attitude, adaptability and motivation to grow and learn ect. They obviously think she's capable or they may have liked her that much that if she doesn't have this particular key skill you have talked about, they do think this is something she can develop whilst at the company. Their is so much more to interviewing and getting a job than just having the exact key skills they request, which is why interviews are needed. Just take it as this isn't the job for you and your perfect job is on the way.

I agree with @SurvivalIsInsufficient that a lot of posters don't seem to understand how recruitment works. I worked in recruitment for over 6 years (I'm still in HR) and you can steal someone else's CV and lie about anything on your application but all it will do is get you to the interview stage as you would have ticked the right boxes. The real test is the interview and any recruiter with a brain WILL question you on the details on the CV as well as the Line manager. Having been in some very technical interviews (engineering and construction in the Energy industry), it becomes obvious very, very quickly when someone cannot back up what they wrote on their resume and is not technically sound. Additionally, while you may be technically proficient, under pressure certain aspects of your personality may come out. I have seen people who started the interview all smiles becomes very snappy and defensive if they feel insecure while being questioned. This is certainly picked up on by the interview panel

There are SO many reasons why it could not have worked out. Let's just say Debbie stole every word from OP's CV, she still had to prove herself in multiple interviews. If she's lacking all the things OP thinks she is, something would have come out somewhere. Recruiters and line managers do hundreds of interviews - they instinctively have a good sense of what they are looking for and the right fit for the role.

And what about references? For all we know, this could have been where OP's application feel down. We''ll never really know, will we? We just have to assume that the professionals know how to do their job and picked who they feel was the right match for the job, their company and the company culture.

If she's no longer a member of our professional body, I can't really report her. Her new employer may not be happy if she's not and maybe I could alert them, but what would be in it for me really?

why do you obsess over this?

You don't know what was said in the first place, and why do you insist the employers is unaware anyway?

I get you are making yourself feel better if you think Debbie got the job because she lied, but it's very likely she simply was a better fit.

I work in recruitment. I promise you a "sore loser" attitude is not something remotely attractive for employers. So feel free to rant with your partner and best friend for a couple of days, but then let it go and move on.

I agree with @SurvivalIsInsufficient that a lot of posters don't seem to understand how recruitment works. I worked in recruitment for over 6 years (I'm still in HR) and you can steal someone else's CV and lie about anything on your application but all it will do is get you to the interview stage as you would have ticked the right boxes. The real test is the interview and any recruiter with a brain WILL question you on the details on the CV as well as the Line manager.

I think you lack an understanding of how recruitment works in many industries. In my industry, someone who works in HR wouldn't have a clue whether a potential employee has the required skills. Obviously there would be people on the panel who do that even then it's not always that easy to work out who's lying.

I confided all of that in her and her role was not just to help me explore other potential jobs / career paths, but to build my confidence.
I really wanted something home based as I do not want to work in a bitchy office environment again. There aren't many home based roles in our industry. In fact this is the only one I've seen in a long time

You might not have realised it, but this probably came across in your interview somehow.

Employers are not interested by what YOU bring to the job, not what the job brings to you. So Debbie probably just came across better, being more relax about the whole thing.

@Belladonna12 - I think you lack an understanding of how recruitment works in many industries. In my industry, someone who works in HR wouldn't have a clue whether a potential employee has the required skills. Obviously there would be people on the panel who do that even then it's not always that easy to work out who's lying.

I'm sorry the people in your industry are seemingly inefficient but I can guarantee you that the people in my workplace are very much aware of what is required. One of my colleagues has sat in an average of 20 interviews per week for over 10 years. I think she has a sense of what she's looking for. And if she doesn't, the subject matter experts with over 30 years experience in their specific fields certainly do.

And if someone has lied, it really isn't that difficult to work out if you know what you're looking. If someone applying for a job in Project Controls can't tell you what VOWD stands for, for eg, of course all the fancy stuff on their resume starts to look questionable.

It's actually quite insulting that you would suggest that people who have gained decades of experience in their fields would be unable to figure out if someone else is knowledgeable on the matter.

I'm sorry the people in your industry are seemingly inefficient but I can guarantee you that the people in my workplace are very much aware of what is required. One of my colleagues has sat in an average of 20 interviews per week for over 10 years. I think she has a sense of what she's looking for. And if she doesn't, the subject matter experts with over 30 years experience in their specific fields certainly do.

HR would probably say the same thing in my industry but nobody who wasn't in HR would agree. I'm sure that's true of many industries.

but nobody who wasn't in HR would agree.

I guess the senior engineers, engineering managers, project managers, delivery team leads, project controls managers etc. who work with our recruiters don't agree but you clearly want to be insulting to HR as a whole so I don't think this is a sensible debate.

And btw, assuming HR is a complete cock-up, it's also why we have SMEs and several rounds of interviews. Are you saying that no one in the entire interview process can vet if someone is capable or proficient?

@PumpkinPieAlibi

but nobody who wasn't in HR would agree.

I guess the senior engineers, engineering managers, project managers, delivery team leads, project controls managers etc. who work with our recruiters don't agree but you clearly want to be insulting to HR as a whole so I don't think this is a sensible debate.

And btw, assuming HR is a complete cock-up, it's also why we have SMEs and several rounds of interviews. Are you saying that no one in the entire interview process can vet if someone is capable or proficient?

You are taking about a specific industry. My point is that you can't extrapolate that to other industries and insist it is the same everywhere.

But that's why you have more than one person on a panel. At least one person will be an expert in the field. And if others are looking out for teamwork, self-awareness, leadership styles, how candidates would fit into the organisation overall, then that creates a fairer all-round experience.

You'd have to be a bit thick to think that if you're appointing, say, a Head of Legal, you automatically appoint the most experienced lawyer in the room. Chances are you have five or six highly competent legal bods on the shortlist, and you choose the one who is the best fit for the team and the organisation. That may or may not be the one who's best on paper. In my experience, the candidate who's best on paper rarely gets the job, as they're often not the best all-rounder.

@Belladonna12 - I agree with you actually. But here's the thing, we don't know OP's industry but we can reasonably assume that if Debbie used OP's application to get an interview, somewhere along the several interviews that she would have participated in, someone would have likely realised she was not as proficient as her CV suggests. The fact that she not only made it through several rounds of interviews but was also the successful candidate suggests that she is very likely seen as capable of doing the job. She may be seen as capable for a number of reasons - her qualifications, prior experience, soft skills, personality, great references or any combination of these.

I just think it's unfair to Debbie, whatever the ethical concerns are about reviewing OP's CV and applying, to imply as the OP has done, that Debbie is not as technically sound or capable as herself.

@fellrunner85 - Exactly!!!

It’s a bit shit yes, she shouldn’t have reviewed your application but I agree people are putting far too much emphasis on the application form. If you both had face to face interviews then the likelihood is they liked her better, be it personality fit or the skills she could provide.

This discrimination nonsense is not going to help OP at all. That would only work if she had detailed she had a disability in the application and then could prove that she was better suited for the job and they then chose Debbie over her because she was disabled. Even then it’s ridiculously hard to prove. There have been times where I’ve listed my own disability and have been sure I’ve been discriminated against because of it but haven’t been able to prove it. Trying to go down that route won’t do her any favours.

@fellrunner85

OP, I deal with senior recruitment a lot, and all your posts have illustrated to me exactly why you didn't get the job.

You need to be thinking what Debbie has that you don't, and how you can work on that before your next interview, rather than focusing on your own assumptions about her experience compared to yours.

Oooh this 100%!!

I still think Debbie was awful. And pretty unethical not to tell you she was going for the job before reading your cv. Or to let you know whenever she did decide to go for it. But sometimes I guess in the shark eat shark world of work sometimes you need to have those qualities to get ahead - whether that be for yourself or the company.

You will never know the full details of what happened, but at the end of the day for whatever reason she was the preferred candidate and was better than you on the day bloody Debbie.

There's a lack of knowledge here about how recruitment works. Certainly there's a question as to how Debbie found out about the role, however if it was posted 'on the internet' then it may very well have been picked up by one of the screen-scraper agencies (e.g. indeed), and she may well have found out about it from there.

The fact that she saw the CV beforehand - again, as previous people have said, your CV will get you an interview and once you are in that interview process then being able to prove what's on your CV, the softer skills, whether you will fit in with the existing team etc etc (all of the stuff that they can't write on a job advert as they don't know it until they get the actual applicants) - that all then comes down to you.

The only slightly unethical thing that I can say is that perhaps Debbie should have mentioned that she also had applied, but again I don't see any issue really with this. I am senior enough so that it's a very small pool of candidates who can do what I do - we all know each other, we all assume the others apply for any job that comes up (not very often, every few years), we know generally why a recruiter will go for person A rather than person B, for a particular situation.

It's fine to be grumpy that you didn't get a role you really wanted, and it's fine to moan about it a bit - but you do have to move on really quickly before this starts to be associated with your name in the future.

Don't go contacting the employer insisting that the job is taken away and given to you - that is the most ridiculous piece of advice I have ever seen, and likewise re the industry body. They will both rightly ignore you, think it's sour grapes, and may make a note of your name...

Best of luck for future job applications. In the future if you see something which looks really good and you'd like to apply for - don't go around telling people explicitly, whether they are colleagues / mentors etc. Let them do their own job hunting.

She most likely got the job over you for the reason she is a mentor, she has more self confidence than you do. You say you are more qualified yet she got the job. There will always be those who talk a good interview and get the job above those who are more technically competent and more qualified but less self confident. My Device work.on your self confidence to help you progress not just in employment.but in life.

Has OP said that there were several rounds of interviews? That wouldn't happen in my industry and probably not in every other industry. I'm not suggesting that Debbie isn't at all qualified but that doesn't mean she couldn't have embellished her experience a bit on paper or in interview and used OP's CV and experience to do that. OP has said that she isn't as technically qualified and she may be right. All the people jumping onto say that couldn't possibly happen in her industry when they don't even know what it is are a bit naïve.

@Belladonna12

Op has said there were interview rounds and she got through to the very last round. It’s doubtful that Debbie could have faked it through all the rounds.

Of course your bitter, jeez who wouldn’t be. However hold your head up high you got to the final stage. Going forward play your cards close to your chest, remember what is for you won’t pass you by, good luck with the job search.

@Belladonna12

Quote from OP - should have added, I got all the way to the final stage interview for this job that she got.

I'm a mentor and advising someone on an application for a job you are going to apply for yourself is a clear conflict of interest.

If she knew and had applied beforehand she could easily have said sorry, this is a conflict, I've applied already. Instead she chose to advise you on your app for a job she wanted.

If she found out about the job from you, she could have said that it sounds like something she would be interested in so best seek advice from someone else, but instead she took the advantage of seeing your application.

If she found out from you but only decided to apply after advising you to the absolute best of her ability, it would have been professional courtesy to let you know to give you the opportunity to make further changes or get more advice on your application. She chose not to do that either.

YANBU

[quote PumpkinPieAlibi]@Belladonna12

Quote from OP - should have added, I got all the way to the final stage interview for this job that she got. [/quote]
That doesn't mean that there were several interviews!

@StooriMidori

I'm a mentor and advising someone on an application for a job you are going to apply for yourself is a clear conflict of interest.

If she knew and had applied beforehand she could easily have said sorry, this is a conflict, I've applied already. Instead she chose to advise you on your app for a job she wanted.

If she found out about the job from you, she could have said that it sounds like something she would be interested in so best seek advice from someone else, but instead she took the advantage of seeing your application.

If she found out from you but only decided to apply after advising you to the absolute best of her ability, it would have been professional courtesy to let you know to give you the opportunity to make further changes or get more advice on your application. She chose not to do that either.

YANBU

I totally agree and wonder at the ethics of those who don't.