friend got job she knew I wanted

[fcekinghell]

It may be my own stupid fault, lesson learned but anyway.

I have an industry mentor. Mentors were being offered to people in my field about 2 years ago and I put myself forward as a means to widen my network, find out about new opportunities etc, especially as I wasn't happy where I was at the time.

I got assigned to a woman I will call Debbie. We had a few Zoom calls, emails etc where she gave me some tips and advice on how to move into employers like her own.

For the record, I am more qualified and experienced than Debbie but wanted a mentor to help me into that kind of employer. Debbie told me to keep her posted on my job hunting. Offered to help with my CV and interview skills if I needed it.

Well I got made redundant in Covid. Debbie still working where she is. Then my dream job came up. I excitedly told Debbie, telling her its my dream job. I did the application and asked Debbie what she thought, was there anything missing. She told me it was 'perfect' and 'good luck'.

Well, I didn't get the job. They said they might recruit later in the year and they'll let me know. I've now heard that Debbie got the job.

It feels like a real kick in the stomach. She was my mentor. She knew this was my dream job and jobs like this don't come up often. In fact, really rarely. She knew I was unemployed whilst she was still working. Plus this job is asking for a particular skill which I do not believe she has.

DH and my DM are telling me I am a fucking idiot for speaking to her. I am aren't I? I probably gave her all the answers too!

I'm so upset

I think she behaved appallingly to let you talk to her about your application without letting you know you were in competition with her. She is not your friend and not much of a mentor - a relationship that needs trust.

But, you can't expect someone in your industry to sit back and not go for a job they want once they've heard about it. It's a risk with a mentor who isn't rungs higher up the food chain you. Even if she hears about the job through you it's unreasonable to expect her to put her career ambitions on hold just because she's volunteered to help you out. She's probably mentoring in part to increase her network too.

It sucks, OP. And I'm sorry you lost out on your dream job. Try and pick yourself up and dust yourself down and get back in there. Maybe finding someone different to mentor you.

Also, while assuming she lied about her experience isn't totally unreasonable given she was happy to lie by omission to you, it's probably not the healthiest assumption to make about why you didn't get the job. When everything smarts a little less (but don't leave it too long), asking for feedback or a chat from someone on the interviewing panel might be constructive, if they'll give it.

Looking at her CV and wishing her well without disclosing that she is also going for the job, is also not ethical.

I disagree.

I have said that, personally, I'd have told OP.

But Debbie isn't wrong. It's absolutely her choice.

She had no informal or formal mentoring arrangement with OP, whatever OP thinks. She absolutely was under no obligation, ethical or otherwise, to tell OP.

@BoomBoomsCousin

I think she behaved appallingly to let you talk to her about your application without letting you know you were in competition with her. She is not your friend and not much of a mentor - a relationship that needs trust.

But, you can't expect someone in your industry to sit back and not go for a job they want once they've heard about it. It's a risk with a mentor who isn't rungs higher up the food chain you. Even if she hears about the job through you it's unreasonable to expect her to put her career ambitions on hold just because she's volunteered to help you out. She's probably mentoring in part to increase her network too.

It sucks, OP. And I'm sorry you lost out on your dream job. Try and pick yourself up and dust yourself down and get back in there. Maybe finding someone different to mentor you.

Also, while assuming she lied about her experience isn't totally unreasonable given she was happy to lie by omission to you, it's probably not the healthiest assumption to make about why you didn't get the job. When everything smarts a little less (but don't leave it too long), asking for feedback or a chat from someone on the interviewing panel might be constructive, if they'll give it.

Debbie wasn't her mentor. OP is using that word but that's not what happened

A conversation about clients in Debbie's field is not mentoring. It was just a contact in a related area.

Op you fundamentally misunderstood what a mentor is
And it’s confusing all the fangirls who are bumming on about girl code,ethics,morality. Because they don’t understand either

@HappyHallie

When recruiting for a small team I have, and have known others to, choose to give the job to an applicant who was second best technically but who we felt would get on better with the team.

So there's one of the many reasons they could have chosen her instead of you.

Good point.

@fcekinghell

I know she got the job cause she updated her LinkedIn

I sent her a LinkedIn message saying "well done, I didn't know you were also applying" to which she replied "thanks, good luck in your continued job hunt"

No acknowledgement that she looked over my application, no acknowledgement that she never told me, no apology, just kind of rubbing it in that I am still looking.

I tried to be professional in my reply but I think she's being even more of a bitch. AIBU?

I would be more accepting of her getting the role if she'd just been honest. Okay I may be unfair on the qualifications and experience aspect but my anger and upset is probably getting the better of me.

@fcekinghell: I think she’s a bitch! She absolutely should have told you there was a conflict of interest...

That said, play it cool, you never know she may still be a useful contact in future in a small industry/make no enemies . I’ve competed against friends/colleagues and ALWAYS cross paths with old colleagues when I move roles so you need to (eventually) pick yourself up and slap a smile on

I would never, if employed, tell someone in my industry I was applying for a job (apart from 1-2 really trusted friends including my 1st boss who really is a mentor), so I understand her not telling you that, but she should have made an excuse not to see your application

This is also why mentors/mentees should have a difference in level, not be competing

Having been unemployed a couple of years ago, I personally wish you luck in your job search - and damn well contact this (underhand) woman next time you see something that interests you (unless she would tell friends?). She is unlikely to be looking now, and owes you one! Be all innocent when the time comes ...

No conflict of interest. Only op expectation and entitlement

I really wish Debbie appeared tbh. I would be very curious to hear what arrangements these actually were.

This is awful. I would ask for specific feedback from the interview. But then I would remain very very professional. The world is small and this does sound quite niche. Its just shows you cannot trust people.

Its just shows you cannot trust people.

No, it shows that you cannot have a sense of entitlement about a role, to the extent of expecting someone to disclose their intentions when they had no obligation to do so.

OP was not required to 'trust' Debbie. Debbie was merely a contact in a related part of the industry.

I would have disclosed it, if I were Debbie, but that's me, it doesn't make Debbie wrong or OP right in her views.

OP is being extraordinarily nasty about Debbie too.

I think you need to devote a good day or so to being completely, unashamedly unreasonable somewhere with no consequences (probably not on the internet!) Normally I’d suggest a drink with a very good, trusted old friend, but we can’t do that, eh, so maybe a phone call or speak to someone you live with and give vent to all your feelings, no matter how petty and mean-spirited they appear to be.

But then, crucially, it’s time to leave all that behind, take a deep breath and be the bigger person. I think her message back to you is fine, she was probably feeling awkward and trying to put boundaries in place.

I’ve had loads of career disappointments in my time and this is the only thing I’ve found that works. When I was passed over for my own dream job a few years ago, I found out on a train and I wanted to hurl myself on the floor and kick and scream like a toddler. But luckily I didn’t and after a bit of undignified venting to my partner later on, I got on with things and a few months later got an even better job which was far better than the original “dream job” would have been. Don’t try to smother the anger and upset because it needs to be free and I think it’s damaging to try to squash those feelings, but try not to dwell either. That’s the best advice I think I could give anybody in your situation and I hope it helps.

@EarringsandLipstick

It doesn't matter what OP chooses to call her. Even if Debbie were just someone who she met on an industry related forum and then the two got chatting privately, letting someone tell you all about their application for a position and not either stopping them or telling them you are also applying is shitty behaviour and OP is reasonable to be pissed off at Debbie for it.

Of course, she's not being a bitch - but you are! She is under no obligation to discuss her career plans with you. She replied to you pleasantly, wishing you luck - what else can she say?
If you came across in the interview like you're coming across here, that's possibly why you didn't get the job.

[quote BoomBoomsCousin]@EarringsandLipstick

It doesn't matter what OP chooses to call her. Even if Debbie were just someone who she met on an industry related forum and then the two got chatting privately, letting someone tell you all about their application for a position and not either stopping them or telling them you are also applying is shitty behaviour and OP is reasonable to be pissed off at Debbie for it.[/quote]
I mean, ok, you (& OP) are entitled to that opinion, even tho I don't agree.

However that's not how OP has presented it. She calls Debbie her friend (she isn't), her mentor (ditto) & then slags her off repeatedly about how vastly inferior Debbie was to her, saying fairly clearly that Debbie benefited from seeing OP's CV.

None of that is true.

If she felt put out just at not being told, without any of the bitterness & mean-spirited comments, I'd think fair enough.

But every post is implying (and more) that Debbie got an unfair advantage by seeing the OP's CV, by getting the 'answers', that she hadn't the right qualifications, she's a bitch, she didn't deserve it as she's no children or health conditions.

That's the part that reflects so badly on OP.

I'd have said, if I were Debbie, but I'm making the point that she didn't have to and OP is in the wrong to be so vicious about her, instead of examining how she can improve.

How did she become your mentor? Who made the introductions? From your OP it sounds like it was something reasonably official and like you applying to be a mentee, she had to apply to be a mentor. It would obviously be difficult to prove she didn't know about the job until you mentioned it to her but surely there must be some sort of code in place that means she either shouldn't have been able to apply for the position as she had seen your application or immediately upon receiving anything from you which identified a company she was in the process of applying to she should have stated a conflict of interest and said she was unable to provide any feedback in this instance. If there was an organisation involved in the mentor/mentee establishment I would report this case to them @fcekinghell

I think either way Debbie should be removed from the mentor programme as she failed to observe a conflict of interest which is at least very unprofessional and likely frowned upon in the mentor programme - if she had already applied then she should have declined to advise op and notified op that this was as she was also applying. If she had not heard of the job prior yo advising op it is then unprofessional to, having seen ops application and cv, to also apply in competition imo.

However, with them possibly having vacancies i agree that you can't say anything, and even if you did then to what end.... so you are right to take this as lesson learned and just carry on with your search.

Good luck op

OP do you actually know that you came a close second to Debbie in the recruitment process - from your posts it seems like you are saying if you hadn't told Debbie about the job it would have definitely been yours..I would imagine Debbie had been actively job hunting and would have come across the vacancy anyway despite what you say about it being in an obscure website,

If she has lied, she will get found out. Let it play out. Doing anything else will just come back and bite you!

And yet with all of that in your favour, they still went with her. Some reflection as to why is probably a good idea.

You sound so entitled, it's unlikely to help you going forward.

yes I was definitely the runner up

I'm not going to do or say anything further.

But I'm still really upset that I'm still unemployed, after the shittiest year for many reasons, which she knew all about.

Have been cheered up by my bestie (also employed in our industry) who is angry on my behalf and says hopefully karma will bite her.

Goodnight everyone and thanks for letting me vent, whether you agree with me or not.

OP, I know you're done for the night, but I just wanted to say, that was really shitty of her ethically.

Any time I've been in that situation, I've either told my friend/colleague ("I'm happy to look over your application, but you should know that I'm going up for the post too") or declined to help (even vaguely, e.g. "I'd love to look it over, but I don't think I'm the right person--maybe try X?").

It's very bad form to do what she did.

I think I'd feel put out too.

Saying that, it's not clear why she didn't mention anything so I don't think it's fair to assume her motives were sneaky. Maybe she thought it wouldn't be right to tell you, that telling you she was competing for the same position might come across as deliberately trying to knock your confidence. Maybe she was anxious that it might be treading on your toes so chickened out of mentioning it because she thought she wouldn't get the job anyway. You have to be careful ascribing motive (although you could of course be right) to others actions.

I'd just keep things friendly with her in the hope that she might put a word in if another position arises. And keep reminding yourself that the personal circumstances that made this job ideal for you are not reasons for her not to apply - her only 'crime' is not mentioning it, which isn't that bad really.

I really wish Debbie appeared tbh. I would be very curious to hear what arrangements these actually were.

@SchrodingersImmigrant Me too, especially as OP kind of changed her story in terms of whether she was still a mentor or not, or was a friend.

You were interested in her old job, so contact her employers and see when they're advertising! Maybe she could even recommend you?

I think what you were doing was networking and providing peer support rather than being a mentor/mentee. Assume your work relationship is over!

I can't think of any sort of personal or professional relationship where I would agree to read someone's CV without letting them know I was applying for the same job.

Regardless of whether this woman's a real mentor or not, regardless of what professional ethical standards say, etc etc, I think it's off and you are right to be upset about that.

I do think you have to let go of the other stuff, you're making this very personal and it's not a personal issue, it's business.