Non-binary pronouns change for my daughter

[Dollyplum]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and after searching, couldn't find any past threads for this.

My daughter now identifies as non-binary and has changed her name to reflect her new identity. She is now asking us to use they/them pronouns and tbh, we're really struggling with this. We don't have any issues with her wanting to be the person she wants to be, but I can't quite explain why we find the pronouns so hard to come to terms with. I guess from an old fashioned perspective, they/them is plural, and we have known her for nearly 14 years as a girl.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to handle this please? Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue. We have changed her name at school, dentist, etc. to her preferred name.

I'm sure other parents here have been through the same thing and any advice would be welcome please. Thank you so much :-) x

@midgedude

If you force someone to use they because you feel none binary , what assumptions are you making about everyone else in the world?

That they accept the gender identity you just gave them?

You saying
Treat me different please not according to my sex means you accept that people should normally be treated differently because of their sex ( in none medical /biological ways because you still need San pro )

You keep saying this midge but it doesn't make sense.

It is their own personal belief which they are entitled to as much as you are entitled to yours. They're not putting anything on anyone else.

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer bit of a clever twist there.

It was obvious that I meant its bigoted to not accept or use the chosen pronouns.

Firstly there's a difference between sex and gender.

What sex and gender are, whether they both actually exist and, if they do, whether they are the same or different things is really at the heart of what is disagreed upon. I don't think you can make a blanket statement about them without unpacking what you mean by those concepts.

But that is slightly beside the point I was making. A previous poster said words to the effect of (and I'm paraphrasing here), "it doesn't matter what they call themselves because people will be able to see what sex they are anyway". I was just pointing out that the people who believe in the existence of a non-binary identity tend to reject the idea that you can tell anything meaningful about a person's identity by observing their physical characteristics.

Weirdly enough in the world outside MN, I would find that more people are respectful of it and would never dream of saying in a public setting that it's faith based or made up and nonsense or pandering or anything like that.

What a strange comment! The 'world outside MN' is pretty much the same as the world inside MN - a wide variety of people and experiences and opinions. People in both worlds tend to place a high value on honesty and tolerance, which is where gender ideology ideas come a cropper.

They are

The minute they call me she or woman after saying they are none binary they are saying that they see me and expect me to be a certain type of person .. a she

Because of my sex I had had to fight harmful limiting unjust assumptions all my life . And they are saying they support the people who did me wrong , the people who think that because I am a woman my brain is fundamentally different to a mans

I am not happy to be called woman if it means something else, ill defined

To add some context , in my younger days I did suffer body dysmorphia, the only way I can comfortably live with my body today is to remember at all times that the body is just that , not me , just my biological vehicle . As soon as people start pretending that woman means more than biology , I feel that self disgust rise again and I know I need to be careful

Because I don't believe that you should have to have surgery and medically alter your biology just to get people to ditch the stereotypes, but sometimes the knife seems the easier option

Telling a child you won't respect their wishes or pander to them is all well and good but I'd be interested to see the outcome of their relationship in later life.

There are many aspects of raising children where not respecting a child's wishes or pandering to them is necessary to provide them with security, stability and respect for others.

No children can't always have their own way, yes they do need to learn to share, yes interrupting is rude, no you can't have a puppy for Christmas etc, etc. That's the job of a responsible parent. If you're suggesting that parents should respect all decision-making by their children and pander to them or risk ruining their relationships them, I think we can see, that clearly is bollocks.

When I was a child I pretended to be a dog and wanted my parents to call me by a dog name - my parents didn't respect my wishes. Weirdly it didn't ruin our relationship.

I was just pointing out that the people who believe in the existence of a non-binary identity tend to reject the idea that you can tell anything meaningful about a person's identity by observing their physical characteristics.

And so we're back to gender ideology being a set of beliefs and faith.

Whereas the rest of us are just using our eyeballs to actually see whether someone is male or female. Science shows that humans rely massively on non-verbal communication - biology, body language and physical characteristics are an enormous part of how humans gather information about other people. It's why concepts like 'first impressions' are embedded in our society. You can believe that these characteristics are unimportant if you like, but in reality it's part of the fabric of how human society functions and one of the reasons that you can't identify out of biological realities.

Weirdly enough in the world outside MN, I would find that more people are respectful of it and would never dream of saying in a public setting that it's faith based or made up and nonsense or pandering or anything like that.

I can't think of many people I know with those opinions

Yes, because what happens when we come out with our views, opinions and facts about gender and it's unprovable idealisms in 'real life'? Hello cancel-culture - it's not just for the right-wing 'dislike everyone but us' brigade!

People (women mostly) are being targeted not just with violence and rape threats, they're being reported to their workplaces, losing opportunities and being 'outed as bigots' for any mention of not agreeing with gender ideology.

It's absolutely not representative to say 'oh in the real world, most people are happy to accept gender as reality'. Have you not noticed the political climate out there in Real World Land? Despite the Tories, even before Covid, being awful useless twats, Labour cannot gain ground on them. This is what happens when the so called 'liberal left' turns its back on a majority group with underprivileged issues. Women may not be able to use their voices out loud, but we will damn well use them where it counts.

Again though, if you disagree that gender isn't belief based, what do you think it's based on @
RootyT00t?

I feel very much that this is the case with my trans kid. Something to rail against, something he thinks we don't understand, something to pin his terrible low self esteem on.

The fact that we have been understanding and accepting and used the pronouns he would like seems to have come as a bit of a shock. Almost like it has taken the wind out of his angry sails. So we mostly call him he (still forget and use his "dead name" at times - oh how I hate that phrase) but like I said in my original post this small thing that he wants us to do doesnt seem impossible and seems respectful of his choices.

As I also said, we have told him that we won't be discussing radical double mastectomies or puberty blockers or 'bottom' surgery for a good long while. He has a referral in to GIDS but I think their waiting list is 2 years?

So to sum up. We use he because our child would like us to and not doing it would cause massive arguments on an almost hourly basis.

That sounds tough @Skatastic but it sounds like you're navigating it well I think with any parenting you have to 'pick your battles' and recognising that teens neurobiologically struggle with controlling impulsivity and evaluating risk/consequence then it makes sense to set firm boundaries at medical procedures which cause physical and irreversible changes but give ground on the identity aspects, because maintaining that relationship is of course paramount.
I really don't envy today's teens or their parents.

[quote RootyT00t]@RufustheSniggeringReindeer bit of a clever twist there.

It was obvious that I meant its bigoted to not accept or use the chosen pronouns.[/quote]
To be very fair the child concerned may well be in the early stages and may change their mind about how they want to be referred to

Sometimes things that are ‘obvious’ dont come through on posts

Yes, but I obviously wouldn't expect someone to use the pronouns if they didn't want to. The child that is.

@BrumBoo

Weirdly enough in the world outside MN, I would find that more people are respectful of it and would never dream of saying in a public setting that it's faith based or made up and nonsense or pandering or anything like that.

I can't think of many people I know with those opinions

Yes, because what happens when we come out with our views, opinions and facts about gender and it's unprovable idealisms in 'real life'? Hello cancel-culture - it's not just for the right-wing 'dislike everyone but us' brigade!

People (women mostly) are being targeted not just with violence and rape threats, they're being reported to their workplaces, losing opportunities and being 'outed as bigots' for any mention of not agreeing with gender ideology.

It's absolutely not representative to say 'oh in the real world, most people are happy to accept gender as reality'. Have you not noticed the political climate out there in Real World Land? Despite the Tories, even before Covid, being awful useless twats, Labour cannot gain ground on them. This is what happens when the so called 'liberal left' turns its back on a majority group with underprivileged issues. Women may not be able to use their voices out loud, but we will damn well use them where it counts.

Again though, if you disagree that gender isn't belief based, what do you think it's based on @
RootyT00t?

It's the phrasing I don't like Brum. Faith based ideology. As if dismissing them.

I disagree. I don't think the vast majority of people have a problem with gender and if they do they don't vocalise it. Because they recognise that doing that isn't on.

@WaltzingBetty

Telling a child you won't respect their wishes or pander to them is all well and good but I'd be interested to see the outcome of their relationship in later life.

There are many aspects of raising children where not respecting a child's wishes or pandering to them is necessary to provide them with security, stability and respect for others.

No children can't always have their own way, yes they do need to learn to share, yes interrupting is rude, no you can't have a puppy for Christmas etc, etc. That's the job of a responsible parent. If you're suggesting that parents should respect all decision-making by their children and pander to them or risk ruining their relationships them, I think we can see, that clearly is bollocks.

When I was a child I pretended to be a dog and wanted my parents to call me by a dog name - my parents didn't respect my wishes. Weirdly it didn't ruin our relationship.

I'm not suggesting parents should respect all decision making, no. Because it isn't all or nothing, is it?

What is bollocks (and offensive) is attempting to compare wanting to be called by a dog's name in pretending to be a dog and a child's feelings about their gender.

Interesting that you think not using a child's pronouns is demonstrating respect for others when we can clearly see that adults on this thread who believe you shouldn't pander to a child have zero.

It's the phrasing I don't like Brum. Faith based ideology. As if dismissing them.

It's 'faith-based' because it isn't based in any provable reality.

Just as with religious faith or other beliefs, people are entitled to have them , but they can't force others to believe, it doesn't work. And they certainly shouldn't try to punish others for stating that they don't believe.

It's the phrasing I don't like Brum. Faith based ideology. As if dismissing them.

It is dismissive to a point, but as a pp said it is comparable for the lack of evidence. I use 'belief' as a description to make clear it's not based in fact much like religion (or other fundamental beliefs). Until there is tangible evidence, gender ideology doesn't get validation. As I have said many times, people can't even define gender itself, so it is flawed and unfounded from it's very beginning.

I disagree. I don't think the vast majority of people have a problem with gender and if they do they don't vocalise it. Because they recognise that doing that isn't on.

Plenty of people have issues with religion, it makes no sense to walk into rooms or up to religious people to declare 'I dont agree with your nonsensical beliefs, the ongoing effect they have on society, and the regressive attitudes they bring'. Doesnt mean many people don't vocalise it in plenty of other ways. Forums like this just give people a platform to discuss, it doesn't make it a minority view In Real Life.

I'm not suggesting parents should respect all decision making, no. Because it isn't all or nothing, is it?

Well, 'Telling a child you won't respect their wishes or pander to them is all well and good but I'd be interested to see the outcome of their relationship in later life'
Doesn't seem especially nuanced. In fact it seems quite all or nothing as a statement.

What is bollocks (and offensive) is attempting to compare wanting to be called by a dog's name in pretending to be a dog and a child's feelings about their gender.

That's probably why I made absolutely no attempt to compare the two. You did. I merely gave it as an example where parents not pandering didn't undermine a relationship.

Interesting that you think not using a child's pronouns is demonstrating respect for others when we can clearly see that adults on this thread who believe you shouldn't pander to a child have zero.

Sorry but I've absolutely no idea what that very long unpunctuated sentence is supposed to mean. The only bit I can get is the first part where you've stated that I think not using a child's pronouns demonstrates respect for others. Do I?
It's interesting that you know more about me than I do.

I'd actually say It's an strangel leap considering I've never said that and when I've already actually answered that point in a question you posed a few days ago and did not give that answer.

But why focus on reality eh?

@BrumBoo

It's the phrasing I don't like Brum. Faith based ideology. As if dismissing them.

It is dismissive to a point, but as a pp said it is comparable for the lack of evidence. I use 'belief' as a description to make clear it's not based in fact much like religion (or other fundamental beliefs). Until there is tangible evidence, gender ideology doesn't get validation. As I have said many times, people can't even define gender itself, so it is flawed and unfounded from it's very beginning.

I disagree. I don't think the vast majority of people have a problem with gender and if they do they don't vocalise it. Because they recognise that doing that isn't on.

Plenty of people have issues with religion, it makes no sense to walk into rooms or up to religious people to declare 'I dont agree with your nonsensical beliefs, the ongoing effect they have on society, and the regressive attitudes they bring'. Doesnt mean many people don't vocalise it in plenty of other ways. Forums like this just give people a platform to discuss, it doesn't make it a minority view In Real Life.

But ...

Refusing to use someone's pronouns is the same as someone saying I'm a Christian and you saying no you're not.

Which we wouldn't do.

@WaltzingBetty

I'm not suggesting parents should respect all decision making, no. Because it isn't all or nothing, is it?

Well, 'Telling a child you won't respect their wishes or pander to them is all well and good but I'd be interested to see the outcome of their relationship in later life'
Doesn't seem especially nuanced. In fact it seems quite all or nothing as a statement.

What is bollocks (and offensive) is attempting to compare wanting to be called by a dog's name in pretending to be a dog and a child's feelings about their gender.

That's probably why I made absolutely no attempt to compare the two. You did. I merely gave it as an example where parents not pandering didn't undermine a relationship.

Interesting that you think not using a child's pronouns is demonstrating respect for others when we can clearly see that adults on this thread who believe you shouldn't pander to a child have zero.

Sorry but I've absolutely no idea what that very long unpunctuated sentence is supposed to mean. The only bit I can get is the first part where you've stated that I think not using a child's pronouns demonstrates respect for others. Do I?
It's interesting that you know more about me than I do.

I'd actually say It's an strangel leap considering I've never said that and when I've already actually answered that point in a question you posed a few days ago and did not give that answer.

But why focus on reality eh?

Aw we managed one interaction without you being rude waltzing, I thought I'd give you a blast and we actually managed it but the nastiness is out again, so no thanks.

Feel free to punctuate that sentence though - I've looked and I don't think I could have written it any differently.

Nice while it lasted.

Refusing to use someone's pronouns is the same as someone saying I'm a Christian and you saying no you're not.

No, it isn't. It's the same as someone saying 'I'm a Christian' and me saying 'I'm an atheist.'

They believe in their religion so they can use the terminology around that and be comfortable. I don't have to use any of it because it's all part of an ideology that I don't ascribe to so it's meaningless to me.

Of course, if I choose, I can use their terminology out of respect. But there would have to be some basis for that respect and not just that I'm afraid of what will happen if I refuse.

@Impatiens

Refusing to use someone's pronouns is the same as someone saying I'm a Christian and you saying no you're not.

No, it isn't. It's the same as someone saying 'I'm a Christian' and me saying 'I'm an atheist.'

They believe in their religion so they can use the terminology around that and be comfortable. I don't have to use any of it because it's all part of an ideology that I don't ascribe to so it's meaningless to me.

Of course, if I choose, I can use their terminology out of respect. But there would have to be some basis for that respect and not just that I'm afraid of what will happen if I refuse.

I dont think that's comparable impatiens.

In what way are you afraid of what will happen if you refuse to use a young person's pronoun? Every single debate on this seems to revert back to violence.

Aw we managed one interaction without you being rude waltzing, I thought I'd give you a blast and we actually managed it but the nastiness is out again, so no thanks.

So I failed the rudeness test because I said I didn't understand what you had written.

Whereas you've reimagined what I've said to try and make it fit your 'bollocks' and 'offensive' narrative. But that's not rude?

No worries - I figured you'd disengage once you realised that you don't really have any grounds for a sensible discussion - just accusations based on things I didn't actually write and more accusations of rudeness when your errors are pointed out. Standard.

Refusing to use someone's pronouns is the same as someone saying I'm a Christian and you saying no you're not.

I disagree. Anyone can be a gender believer without changing pronouns. Demanding someone use the 'right' pronouns of someone who is non-conforming to their sex is more comparable to demanding a person joining in on prayers and worship. 'Acknowledge my belief as truth and partake'. Again, most will to be polite, follow the customs of the particular beliefs but should they be made to if they fundamentally don't agree with the belief?

Feel free to punctuate that sentence though - I've looked and I don't think I could have written it any differently.

Pretty impossible when I think there are words missing.

What do the parents have zero of?

@WaltzingBetty

Aw we managed one interaction without you being rude waltzing, I thought I'd give you a blast and we actually managed it but the nastiness is out again, so no thanks.

So I failed the rudeness test because I said I didn't understand what you had written.

Whereas you've reimagined what I've said to try and make it fit your 'bollocks' and 'offensive' narrative. But that's not rude?

No worries - I figured you'd disengage once you realised that you don't really have any grounds for a sensible discussion - just accusations based on things I didn't actually write and more accusations of rudeness when your errors are pointed out. Standard.

No I didn't.

You really are just not a pleasant person at all.

It's impossible to have a sensible discussion with you because all you do is snipe, think yourself better than everyone else and pose your faux concerns and misunderstandings while attempting to goad me throughout this thread.

If you choose to believe I'm disengaging because I'm just so stupid and unable to debate that's fine. In reality, it's because I think you are without a doubt one of the most unpleasant posters I've come across in a long time and I've had no wish (despite your continued attempts to goad me) to interact with you since about page 2.

It wasn't an error. I offered to let you correct me but as you haven't il assume you realise it was fine as it was writte .