Page 26 | Non-binary pronouns change for my daughter

kitkat463 · 18/02/2021 17:14

My son said he was nb at 12, asked us to use they them. Might be against the grain but we said no. He is a male, with xy chromosomes and male primary and developing secondary sex characteristics. We had lots of chats, about stereotypes how he could be male and like feminine things, be sexually attracted to other makes but no amount of pronoun changes would make him less male. Now he's further into puberty a bit more sure of himself and his identity as a not particularly typically masculine boy he no longer says he's nb. I worry the pronoun thing is trying to escape stereotyping instead of the much healthier option of challenging it. My opinion....

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 18/02/2021 17:20

[quote Impatiens]@RowanMumsnet and is it now officially part of MN Moderation guidelines that posters can't say they are concerned/worried about the growing numbers of children identifying as trans?[/quote]
Isnt that the whole point with ROGD and a 4000% increase?

(Ive probably got that figure wrong but im doing it from memory and mines shot)

Why is that NOT worrying for some parents

WaltzingBetty · 18/02/2021 17:22

@kitkat463

My son said he was nb at 12, asked us to use they them. Might be against the grain but we said no. He is a male, with xy chromosomes and male primary and developing secondary sex characteristics. We had lots of chats, about stereotypes how he could be male and like feminine things, be sexually attracted to other makes but no amount of pronoun changes would make him less male. Now he's further into puberty a bit more sure of himself and his identity as a not particularly typically masculine boy he no longer says he's nb. I worry the pronoun thing is trying to escape stereotyping instead of the much healthier option of challenging it. My opinion....

It sounds like that's worked well for you @kitkat463

I don't know enough about parenting NB teens to know what the 'right' approach is, but certainly to me, accepting yourself seems much healthier than trying to identify out of your insecurities.

Men can absolutely have feminine traits, women can have masculine ones. That doesn't change their fundamental biology. It's one of the reasons that gender ideology worries me, particularly in relation to girls. We do live in a patriarchal society, and girls cannot identify out of misogyny, so we have to challenge it. It's similar I'm sure for the social pressures to conform that your son may have experienced.

It seems particularly that being trans may be seen as a 'solution' to being gay which is a pretty extreme response and sadly indicative of the homophobia that still exists in society.

Impatiens · 18/02/2021 17:24

I'm baffled @RufustheSniggeringReindeer, surely on a parenting website you can express concern about an issue affecting so many children! Now it seems that's not allowed here

midgedude · 18/02/2021 17:42

You can express concern

It ain't what you do it's the way that you do it

I have certainly said something along these lines... no drama , no emotionally enhanced language

I am worried about the growing number of children , especially girls , who are asking for surgery that is not physically necessary , that will likely leave them infertile or leave them with life long problems such as osteoporosis .

Although I am not sure why that's very relevant to a none binary discussion ?

Sofetikal · 18/02/2021 17:52

Many young people identify as both trans and non binary. No I’m not sure how that works. Different sex and no gender I believe

Impatiens · 18/02/2021 18:04

Many young people identify as both trans and non binary I'm aware of it but no-one seems to be able to explain it in a way that makes any sense.

You can express concern It ain't what you do it's the way that you do it

Yes @midgedude which makes it even more confusing to me that Sofetikal's post was deleted - it was far less contentious than your alternative!

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 18/02/2021 18:21

I have certainly said something along these lines... no drama , no emotionally enhanced language

So have i , and it wasn’t delated but that was months ago

Now sofetikal has been deleted for similar

Can you remember what she said...I can’t so it could have been horrendous, but i didnt read it that way so maybe it wasnt

Fuck me thats confusing 😀

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 18/02/2021 18:22

Deleted...

Impatiens · 18/02/2021 18:35

I suppose I'll get deleted again for quoting a deleted post - but Rowan quoted it and didn't delete herself..

Rowan Hello - yes the wording was 'a scroll through TikTok will show how many teenagers are trans now and its very worrying.' Again, on a thread where parents of NB children are seeking and giving support we think the implication that being trans/increasing numbers of children presenting as trans is de facto 'worrying' is out of place - not all parents of trans and NB children see this as being worrying or concerning (in itself) at all, and our concern (at MNHQ) is not to allow posts that make sweeping negative generalisations about trans people or about the experience of being trans.

midgedude · 18/02/2021 18:46

II wonder if it's how it was phrased... it was something along the line of it's worrying to see so many children are trans....

Firstly not everyone agrees it is worrying. Some people might say it's a good thing that these children can be themselves. If it was personalised to "I find it worrying " , that might be better.

And if the worry could be applied to specific actions not people. Sort of like when you reprimand a child for their behaviour, not just say "bad child". Saying Transpeople are worrying is almost personally attacking people for being themselves.

Whereas if you were saying I am worried that so many children are trans because of the link between children identifying as trans and then being steered towards a medical pathway which has not be proven beneficial....then it's not the people , it's what you see happening to them . Which i suspect is actually what is worrying you anyway

?

Skatastic · 18/02/2021 18:47

Ooh I got notifications that I was mentioned in this thread but can't find the comments. Were they deleted? I wonder if someone was being mean....

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 18/02/2021 19:06

I getcha midge

Impatiens · 18/02/2021 19:26

Pretty sure I mentioned you @Skatastic - but I can't remember what I said. Probably has been deleted for some reason or other...

WaltzingBetty · 18/02/2021 20:15

@Impatiens

I suppose I'll get deleted again for quoting a deleted post - but Rowan quoted it and didn't delete herself..

Rowan Hello - yes the wording was 'a scroll through TikTok will show how many teenagers are trans now and its very worrying.' Again, on a thread where parents of NB children are seeking and giving support we think the implication that being trans/increasing numbers of children presenting as trans is de facto 'worrying' is out of place - not all parents of trans and NB children see this as being worrying or concerning (in itself) at all, and our concern (at MNHQ) is not to allow posts that make sweeping negative generalisations about trans people or about the experience of being trans.

Yes. I think MNHQ are navigating a tricky line of supporting discussion and debate whilst also being sensitive to the views of all of their users.

RootyT00t · 18/02/2021 21:54

[quote Impatiens]@RowanMumsnet and is it now officially part of MN Moderation guidelines that posters can't say they are concerned/worried about the growing numbers of children identifying as trans?[/quote]
I think Rowans point is that a child identifying in that way is not worrying.

RootyT00t · 18/02/2021 21:56

@Impatiens

I'm baffled *@RufustheSniggeringReindeer*, surely on a parenting website you can express concern about an issue affecting so many children! Now it seems that's not allowed here

I'm including myself in this, but I think the wider point Rowan is making is that posts should have been supportive, as per a few that offered advice. Not one side shouting about it being worrying and all the dangerous consequences and me arguing til I'm blue in the face.

They don't want the debate.
Whether there should be one in AIBU I can see your point but that's what she's getting at and fair enough.

toconclude · 18/02/2021 22:06

Singular 'they' predates singular 'you' in the history of the English language, as a matter of interest (and fact). It will get better with practice, just persevere. It's about respect.

DaisyDreaming · 18/02/2021 22:12

Just support them and try!

Impatiens · 18/02/2021 22:13

@kitkat463

My son said he was nb at 12, asked us to use they them. Might be against the grain but we said no. He is a male, with xy chromosomes and male primary and developing secondary sex characteristics. We had lots of chats, about stereotypes how he could be male and like feminine things, be sexually attracted to other makes but no amount of pronoun changes would make him less male. Now he's further into puberty a bit more sure of himself and his identity as a not particularly typically masculine boy he no longer says he's nb. I worry the pronoun thing is trying to escape stereotyping instead of the much healthier option of challenging it. My opinion....

I thought it was worth quoting this if the focus is on advice/support - this poster said no to pronouns. Took the time to talk to him, reassure him, and explain their view.

If it's possible to have a rational discussion (and clearly it isn't always) then it seems perfectly ok to put your own pov and ask for mutual respect.

Impatiens · 18/02/2021 22:16

@TheBuffster

I haven't read the whole thread op, but I can well imagine how upsetting it can be for you. My son's sex was revealed at his birth. I will never forget the midwife sliding him through my legs and announcing 'it's a boy'. We are very against gender stereotypes but if he decided to be referred to as they I think it would diminish the magic of that moment if that makes sense. Same for a name I lovingly agonised over and chose carefully. It'd hurt my feelings to have my history with my baby disregarded so readily by them do I understand your distress completely. Nicknames are different and vary from group to group, it feels like more of a rejection.

Perhaps DD is trying to escape sexism, who knows.

Myself I would just remind her of all the moments that are important to you about her. You realise she'll grow and become an adult but she'll always be your little girl. If that makes sense.
Of course that's exactly the sort of sentimental yuk teens find embarrassing.

I guess kids have always rebelled and you just have to hope at the end of it they come back to you.

Wishing you luck and strength.

This is another excellent, supportive post, explaining why a parent might find it so difficult to use 'neutral' pronouns.

I guess kids have always rebelled and you just have to hope at the end of it they come back to you.

Absolutely right Buffster

RootyT00t · 18/02/2021 22:37

It's also ok to give advice on using the pronouns, as many early posters did, given that's what she is struggling with.

begaydocrime · 18/02/2021 22:39

@Dollyplum

Hi everyone, I'm new here and after searching, couldn't find any past threads for this.

My daughter now identifies as non-binary and has changed her name to reflect her new identity. She is now asking us to use they/them pronouns and tbh, we're really struggling with this. We don't have any issues with her wanting to be the person she wants to be, but I can't quite explain why we find the pronouns so hard to come to terms with. I guess from an old fashioned perspective, they/them is plural, and we have known her for nearly 14 years as a girl.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to handle this please? Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue. We have changed her name at school, dentist, etc. to her preferred name.

I'm sure other parents here have been through the same thing and any advice would be welcome please. Thank you so much :-) x

Hi, I can see how this would be new and strange and difficult to wrap your head around! The best thing you can do is support your child and use their pronouns that they've asked you to use. You will slip up, inevitably, but what your child needs right now is your love and support, to know that as their parent you will be there for them.

Impatiens · 18/02/2021 23:07

If it's possible to have a rational discussion (and clearly it isn't always) then it seems perfectly ok to put your own pov and ask for mutual respect.

This was in response the post I'd quoted, not a reference to all the argy-bargy on the thread. It's just as important for kids to show respect to their parents as fellow humans as it is for parents to do that. It's teaching them something very important in life.

RootyT00t · 18/02/2021 23:17

@Impatiens

If it's possible to have a rational discussion (and clearly it isn't always) then it seems perfectly ok to put your own pov and ask for mutual respect.

This was in response the post I'd quoted, not a reference to all the argy-bargy on the thread. It's just as important for kids to show respect to their parents as fellow humans as it is for parents to do that. It's teaching them something very important in life.

I can understand that, impatiens.

But, I struggle to get my head round how a parent thinks refusing to use the pronouns is respectful.

It is framed as if it is their choice. It isn't. And that may have worked out for that particular child, but that's chance.