Non-binary pronouns change for my daughter

[Dollyplum]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and after searching, couldn't find any past threads for this.

My daughter now identifies as non-binary and has changed her name to reflect her new identity. She is now asking us to use they/them pronouns and tbh, we're really struggling with this. We don't have any issues with her wanting to be the person she wants to be, but I can't quite explain why we find the pronouns so hard to come to terms with. I guess from an old fashioned perspective, they/them is plural, and we have known her for nearly 14 years as a girl.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to handle this please? Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue. We have changed her name at school, dentist, etc. to her preferred name.

I'm sure other parents here have been through the same thing and any advice would be welcome please. Thank you so much :-) x

@FamilyOfAliens

Exactly. I think a lot of people want to feel they belong, and gender ideology is one way of being a part of a group. If only we could forget about gender, use self expression in a free and uncluttered way, and feel a sense of belonging in more productive value-driven ways.

@SixesAndEights

My advice to the OP is just to keep on practicing and it'll eventually feel natural. Reassure them that you'll soon get into the swing of it.

I'm in my 50s and prefer to be referred to as they/them, and over the last 15 years or so have been alert to using they/them as much as I can generally. I do this because if people don't know the sex of a person they seem automatically to call them Mr or he. It irritates the hell out of me, so they/them is my small way to attempt to neutralise how we refer to people and highlight sexism.

I think gender is a tool used to stereotype people and force them into increasingly narrow definitions, thought processes and ways of self expression, which of course means more and more people are going to believe they're a different gender if they don't conform to these ridiculous stereotypes.

Sex is important biologically. However, societally neutralising the stereotypes of feminine and masculine gender is all good imo.

I broadly agree. It's one of the reasons that I'm generally happy to use they/them pronouns.

My concern is that women and girls are trying to identify out of oppression that is biologically and societally driven - and you can't do that by changing pronouns because regardless of how you identify there are biological challenges that you face as a woman. So for many teens it's the first step in a very damaging slippery slope towards medical mutilations.

Instead I wish we could move away from damaging gender stereotypes - I find it frustrating that we still seem to be stuck in a regressive Barbie-fied definition of what women and girls are, and if you don't fit that mould you must medically alter yourself.

It seems like a form of self harm to me

@FamilyOfAliens

You can't ask me to say always. It's a completely hypothetical situation, hence the potential. Please don't make out I risk my students.

I didn’t ask you to say always. I said it was a shame you didn’t say it.

Because prioritising the safeguarding of children and young people is more important than anything else in a school and if you can’t commit to that, you are putting your students at risk.

And you saying your answer was “potentially” because the situation is hypothetical is nonsense. If you’ve had any safeguarding training you’ll have been asked what you would do in a number of hypothetical situations and you have to be clear and unambiguous about what your safeguarding responsibilities require you to do. “Potentially” just won’t cut it.

Yeah ok, Family.

@Dustyboots

Yes. I get the concerns of young girls/women too. But being manipulated into believing they need to maim and change themselves is not the answer is it.

So parents and responsible adults are right to speak out against this nonsense. It’s right to get heated for that reason.

I can’t understand what the energy and heat on the pro side is. What is that agenda?

It gets heated because people who are well versed in seeing the agenda of the 'other side' if you will, are feigning concern and care for youngsters when actually their agenda is against trans. The shoehorning seen up thread of 'we are worried about young people wanting to change themselves because of their concerns about our misognystic society ' is absolute BS, as is the labouring of assumptions these teens will take puberty blockers and have surgery. This is all about their campaign against trans and gender ideology in general and these teenagers are collateral.

If anyone disbelieve that, OP asked pages ago on advice using pronouns and this thread is a mirror image of any thread mentioning gender ideology - gender is dismissed, the bingo card of it being woo woo and invented by evil people, puberty blockers and autistic girls has been ticked, and we've had the usual comments from people who would refuse to respect it.

At its very core, we have grown adults telling us that they would not accept something that has nothing to do with them. And their only affirmation that it does links back to their own concerns about misogny.

It's nothing to do with the teenagers, and the faux concern for them is what winds me up. I have no problem in general with people having different opinions on it, I have a problem with the people who claim not to understand it with their faux confusion and concern.

It's about agenda. For every one of these threads, there's one or two who support gender ideology and many who don't. And yet, when we are here, we are accused of being evil ghouls here to corrupt children.

We are not the ones with the agenda.

If anyone disbelieve that, OP asked pages ago on advice using pronouns and this thread is a mirror image of any thread mentioning gender ideology - gender is dismissed, the bingo card of it being woo woo and invented by evil people, puberty blockers and autistic girls has been ticked, and we've had the usual comments from people who would refuse to respect it.

Not by all posters.

There are a number of GC feminists on this thread who have shared their personal experiences of raising non-gender conforming children. Ignoring and dismissing their experiences helps no one

If anyone disbelieve that, OP asked pages ago on advice using pronouns and this thread is a mirror image of any thread mentioning gender ideology - gender is dismissed, the bingo card of it being woo woo and invented by evil people, puberty blockers and autistic girls has been ticked, and we've had the usual comments from people who would refuse to respect it.

You can dismiss science if you like - you've already done it repeatedly but the data confirms that significant numbers of children with gender identity issues are diagnosed with autism. By all means, ignore the data if you prefer. It doesn't make it less true. https://gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

We are not the ones with the agenda.

But you are the one calling people names, refusing to discuss your point of view or reasoning, dismissing and belittling evidence, and totally disregarding the posters here who are GC themselves but have still given excellent and supportive advice on respectfully communicating with non-gender conforming teens.

That sounds like an agenda to me.

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate RootyT00t's contribution here. It's hard to put across the opinions of most people on a site that is continually taken over by one viewpoint all on your own!
The feminist boards are just an echo chamber, nobody even tries to disagree or share ideas and opinions that don't fit exactly with the FWRs because of the pile on.
I am so pleased that kids are so much more accepting of each other and differences than they were in the 80s. This trans issue feels like the same shit that went on for gay and lesbian people then. I think there are less haters now. They are mostly older and on MN or reading The Daily Mail.

Mumsnet is so funny today!

Kids are less accepting , not more so

My first boyfriend wore more make up than me .

Gender bending where people did what they wanted ignoring the rules of gender was commonplace

We didn't have to have an narrow scoped gender identity , we didn't have to hide out bodies or dress a certain way, we didn't have to pretend that sex was irrelevant , neither did we have to let that sex be taken to mean anything more than biology

We could be our whole selves with no constraints. Gender smorgasbord . Gender was for the elder generation

I am so pleased that kids are so much more accepting of each other and differences than they were in the 80s. This trans issue feels like the same shit that went on for gay and lesbian people then.

Why then though if children are more accepting of each other, do they feel the need to medically alter themselves? In the 80s androgyny was accepted - Bowie, boy George, Lennox etc all pushed gender stereotypes without being trans. The issue now is that actually we're rigidly judging people based on gender stereotypes and non confirmation is deemed to require intervention.

Gender fluidity has always been part of human society, but the problems today are the safeguarding issues associated with the medicalisation of gender fluidity, and the erosion of women's rights. Non of these were issues in the 80s because society accepted that men and women could live outside gender stereotypes but that their biology remained stable.

It's not the same shit that gay and lesbian people faced because being gay or lesbian does not encroach on the rights of others or present any safeguarding risks. In fact in some cases lesbians have been accused of being transphobic for not wanting to sleep with male bodied people who identify as women. The increased problems LGB people face are well recognised by some members of those communities
lgballiance.org.uk

There are of course risks to trans people themselves. Denying the biological reality of trans people poses risks for their own health assessments, diagnoses and medical treatment as everything from kidney function to disease risks are affected by sex. Not gender

It's a multifaceted issue, but dismissing evidence based concerns in favour of entrenched opinions helps no one

Very disappointed that after more than 10 years on mumsnet I’ve been given a strike. My post simply stated the TikTok trend was worrying as my personal experience has shown. Is this hate speech now? Hardly strike worthy. If we cannot discuss these issues here, among other women and parents where can we? I give up.

@RootyT00t You are brilliant, but far too educated for this thread, well done for giving it a good go.

One side

We don't like gender restrictions, let's throw them out

Other side

We don't like gender restrictions, let's make a new category

So close and yet so far

Gender fluidity has always been part of human society, but the problems today are the safeguarding issues associated with the medicalisation of gender fluidity, and the erosion of women's rights. Non of these were issues in the 80s because society accepted that men and women could live outside gender stereotypes but that their biology remained stable

Exactly. It's baffling how these kids have been so brainwashed.

*Gender fluidity has always been part of human society, but the problems today are the safeguarding issues associated with the medicalisation of gender fluidity, and the erosion of women's rights. Non of these were issues in the 80s because society accepted that men and women could live outside gender stereotypes but that their biology remained stable

Exactly. It's baffling how these kids have been so brainwashed.*

And they call it progressive!

@WaltzingBetty

If anyone disbelieve that, OP asked pages ago on advice using pronouns and this thread is a mirror image of any thread mentioning gender ideology - gender is dismissed, the bingo card of it being woo woo and invented by evil people, puberty blockers and autistic girls has been ticked, and we've had the usual comments from people who would refuse to respect it.

Not by all posters.

There are a number of GC feminists on this thread who have shared their personal experiences of raising non-gender conforming children. Ignoring and dismissing their experiences helps no one

If anyone disbelieve that, OP asked pages ago on advice using pronouns and this thread is a mirror image of any thread mentioning gender ideology - gender is dismissed, the bingo card of it being woo woo and invented by evil people, puberty blockers and autistic girls has been ticked, and we've had the usual comments from people who would refuse to respect it.

You can dismiss science if you like - you've already done it repeatedly but the data confirms that significant numbers of children with gender identity issues are diagnosed with autism. By all means, ignore the data if you prefer. It doesn't make it less true. [[https://gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base]]

We are not the ones with the agenda.

But you are the one calling people names, refusing to discuss your point of view or reasoning, dismissing and belittling evidence, and totally disregarding the posters here who are GC themselves but have still given excellent and supportive advice on respectfully communicating with non-gender conforming teens.

That sounds like an agenda to me.

Hello again waltzing.

Il address this, because the likes of yourself rely on posters who don't rtft or haven't visited the echo chambers to instigate pile ons.

I haven't refused to answer anything. Th only poster I have refused to engage with is you and I stand by that. I have every right to do they, despite your attempts to goad me.

Secondly, it's quite deceitful of you to pretend I dismiss people with GC experience (also very ironic given the sheer number of you who are completely dismissing trans in general and refuse to use pronouns because you know better) I politely asked not to enter s rabbit hole explaining a concept to one poster because on the echo chambers I did so and apparently very much personally upset this poster. I genuinelu didn't want to do that again.

Because you see, I have no agendw. I'm not academic or researched or terribly clever like the likes of yourself. I live from real experience , and just have my opinions. That's it. No agendq at all.

I just find the fact that the majority of posters on these types of thread with their faux concern and fake questions pretending this isn't about the massive divide at the moment utterly infuriating. Particularly you.

I did use words like absurd and arrogant to describe some of your (as a collectiv) posts and I stand by that.

I haven't insulted you personally but you've had several goes on me and are still goading me.

I don't want to derail the thread so I won't be responding further. Thanks.

@midgedude

One side

We don't like gender restrictions, let's throw them out

Other side

We don't like gender restrictions, let's make a new category

So close and yet so far

I agree midge.

The problem is, the way that both sides present the issue. Do you not agree?

I assume you are being sarcastic .

@Skyliner001 that is

@FamilyofAliens - your solution is exactly what non binary is.

Your theory works, but have a look on the echo chambers for 32 pages of shouting that you can only be male or female and thinking otherwise is a mental illness.

It's not that simple. That's why they need the t terms.

Right as lovely as this was, I've had my second strike so Im out - I'm certainly not going to risk my membership because I've been goaded!

What is fueling this growth in non binary

I did use words like absurd and arrogant to describe some of your (as a collectiv) posts and I stand by that.

I haven't insulted you personally

@RootyT00t
You genuinely can't see that you've written a direct contradiction?

Where have I goaded you? I've simply asked you fairly straightforward and polite questions? You can class that as goading if that fits your narrative and makes you feel better about refusing to answer

My assumption would be that if you could explain the rationale behind your beliefs you would, but you haven't. It's sadly a fairly typical #nodebate response to intelligent and informed discussion on these issues - much easier to call people names and refuse to engage in informed discussion