Non-binary pronouns change for my daughter

[Dollyplum]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and after searching, couldn't find any past threads for this.

My daughter now identifies as non-binary and has changed her name to reflect her new identity. She is now asking us to use they/them pronouns and tbh, we're really struggling with this. We don't have any issues with her wanting to be the person she wants to be, but I can't quite explain why we find the pronouns so hard to come to terms with. I guess from an old fashioned perspective, they/them is plural, and we have known her for nearly 14 years as a girl.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to handle this please? Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue. We have changed her name at school, dentist, etc. to her preferred name.

I'm sure other parents here have been through the same thing and any advice would be welcome please. Thank you so much :-) x

But if the fight is ongoing and six boys are knocking seven shades out of each other, would you still spend time taking down names just to avoid saying the word “boys”? Doesn’t that strike you as contrived?

Don’t you think in a critical situation speed of response is more important that not offending someone who might be non-binary?

And what about if you don’t know the student’s name so you have to give a physical description? Surely to goodness you’d start off by saying whether it’s a boy or a girl you’re taking about? (I have a feeling I know the answer to this one).

@FamilyOfAliens

But if the fight is ongoing and six boys are knocking seven shades out of each other, would you still spend time taking down names just to avoid saying the word “boys”? Doesn’t that strike you as contrived?

Don’t you think in a critical situation speed of response is more important that not offending someone who might be non-binary?

And what about if you don’t know the student’s name so you have to give a physical description? Surely to goodness you’d start off by saying whether it’s a boy or a girl you’re taking about? (I have a feeling I know the answer to this one).

On the particular pupil in mind, the information has been widely circulated enough that I'd think it was unlikely someone didn't know

IF they didn't know, and called them a boy, and IF it was an emergency situation, potentially I'd place physical harm over offence yeah.

But on a day to day basis, it is my job to do what is asked , and referring to them as they and using their new name is my job. (Where possible).

We've not had any fights in a while right enough. What with socially distanced key workers kids and all

I think when living with teenagers using the neutral pronouns is a no confrontational approach. This will hopefully be enough to allow a teenager their individualism and is something that is easy, and easily reversible.

I wasn’t actually talking about your specific non-binary student, more about how you manage the school environment in general if you’re compelled to avoid saying whether someone is a boy or girl.

It’s a shame you say you would “potentially” prioritise the safety of a young person over getting the pronouns right rather than “always”, but I suppose it’s a small step in the direction of common sense, so we should be grateful for that.

@FamilyOfAliens

I wasn’t actually talking about your specific non-binary student, more about how you manage the school environment in general if you’re compelled to avoid saying whether someone is a boy or girl.

It’s a shame you say you would “potentially” prioritise the safety of a young person over getting the pronouns right rather than “always”, but I suppose it’s a small step in the direction of common sense, so we should be grateful for that.

We aren't compelled. I've never said that.

You can't ask me to say always. It's a completely hypothetical situation, hence the potential. Please don't make out I risk my students.

You can't ask me to say always. It's a completely hypothetical situation, hence the potential. Please don't make out I risk my students.

I didn’t ask you to say always. I said it was a shame you didn’t say it.

Because prioritising the safeguarding of children and young people is more important than anything else in a school and if you can’t commit to that, you are putting your students at risk.

And you saying your answer was “potentially” because the situation is hypothetical is nonsense. If you’ve had any safeguarding training you’ll have been asked what you would do in a number of hypothetical situations and you have to be clear and unambiguous about what your safeguarding responsibilities require you to do. “Potentially” just won’t cut it.

@Stripesnomore

I can’t believe no binary being treated as a storm in a tea cup is being compared to genuine oppression that gay men faced during the AIDS epidemic.

Way to twist what I said.

My point was, Russell T Davis, also responsible for Queer as Folk. That program was first shown in 1999 on channel 4, post watershed.
It was abused by the tabloid press as filth.

Same as the first lesbian kiss in Brookside, 1993 I think. Also front page news and villified.

Not all that long ago in the grand scheme of things.

However, times have changed since 1999 and now, same guy, Russell T Davis, same channel 4, same subject but different era covered. The reaction has been hugely positive.

Things change.

And in the same way as some of you on here are utterly over the top and rude about teenagers going by they/them, I hope it doesn't take as long as the massive flip in attitudes towards the LGBTQ community in general.

Why do people get so heated about this?

I do understand why parents protecting their kids from the confusion of it all get angry. But don't understand why people on the 'other side' do.

What's it all about? I still don't get it. Some of you say it's a confused type of feminism. Except it seems the opposite to me. It seems like a male idea - a strengthening of patriarchy. Women are having to transform themselves to have any kind of freedom or power. They're not allowed to be neutral or just themselves - with the label of 'she'. She is not good enough. They have to become transfigured and neutralised. Being a woman is not good enough - again. It is an ugly word that needs to be erased.

Am I totally off the mark here? I'm trying to make sense of what you're all writing. It seems absurd.

Why do people get so heated about this?

Do you mean heated about non-binary specifically? I think the problem is that it's tied in with gender ideology/trans activist movement which is having a very damaging effect on the safety and equality of women/girls. That is something definitely worth getting heated about.

It's also a feminist issue that young girls are feel the need to try to 'opt-out' of being female due to their concerns over the role of women in society. I'm repeating myself I know but I totally sympathise and empathise with their concerns.

Yes. I get the concerns of young girls/women too. But being manipulated into believing they need to maim and change themselves is not the answer is it.

So parents and responsible adults are right to speak out against this nonsense. It’s right to get heated for that reason.

I can’t understand what the energy and heat on the pro side is. What is that agenda?

@Dustyboots

Yes. I get the concerns of young girls/women too. But being manipulated into believing they need to maim and change themselves is not the answer is it.

So parents and responsible adults are right to speak out against this nonsense. It’s right to get heated for that reason.

I can’t understand what the energy and heat on the pro side is. What is that agenda?

The only thing I'd say in favour of identifying as NB (sorry, know I'm repeating myself again) is that it doesn't involve drugs/surgery. I think it's probably the way out of the trans epidemic actually.

On the 'pro side' - it's a strange one. Some perfectly intelligent people seem prepared to swear blind that biology is irrelevant and people are born in the wrong bodies and all kinds of ridiculous crap.

I don't know if you want to read about this stuff but this is an excellent article by James Kirkup about the trans activist (TRA) movement and their tactics. www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists

The overall agenda seems to be the same as that of Men's Rights Activists - basically wanting women to shut up, sit down and do as their told.

Also of course the Feminist board on here is a fantastic source of information.

TRA absolutely detest Mumsnet, they take every opportunity to bash this site and claim that it's 'transphobic' and I'm sure it's cost MN in advertising revenue but they've never given in and I've got huge admiration for that.

@Dustyboots

Why do people get so heated about this?

I do understand why parents protecting their kids from the confusion of it all get angry. But don't understand why people on the 'other side' do.

What's it all about? I still don't get it. Some of you say it's a confused type of feminism. Except it seems the opposite to me. It seems like a male idea - a strengthening of patriarchy. Women are having to transform themselves to have any kind of freedom or power. They're not allowed to be neutral or just themselves - with the label of 'she'. She is not good enough. They have to become transfigured and neutralised. Being a woman is not good enough - again. It is an ugly word that needs to be erased.

Am I totally off the mark here? I'm trying to make sense of what you're all writing. It seems absurd.

Would you not feel heated if someone swore blind the earth was square and kept telling you it was square and gave you "scientific" "evidence" that it was square and said you need to change your language and your boundaries because the earth is square....

When it isn't.

No policy made in the shadows can survive in the sunlight.
Thanks for linking that article.

It's an excellent, clear article @PamDenick, James Kirkup has been really good on this.

It's ironic - well, probably not 'ironic' but something or other - that so many left-leaning, previously left-voting Women are now relying on publications like the Spectator, Times and Daily Mail (!) to cover the trans activist issue properly.

The Guardian has completely lost its mind and its values over this, as shown by the loss of the great Suzanne Moore last year, hounded out for her 'wrongthink'.

My advice to the OP is just to keep on practicing and it'll eventually feel natural. Reassure them that you'll soon get into the swing of it.

I'm in my 50s and prefer to be referred to as they/them, and over the last 15 years or so have been alert to using they/them as much as I can generally. I do this because if people don't know the sex of a person they seem automatically to call them Mr or he. It irritates the hell out of me, so they/them is my small way to attempt to neutralise how we refer to people and highlight sexism.

I think gender is a tool used to stereotype people and force them into increasingly narrow definitions, thought processes and ways of self expression, which of course means more and more people are going to believe they're a different gender if they don't conform to these ridiculous stereotypes.

Sex is important biologically. However, societally neutralising the stereotypes of feminine and masculine gender is all good imo.

@SixesAndEights

My advice to the OP is just to keep on practicing and it'll eventually feel natural. Reassure them that you'll soon get into the swing of it.

I'm in my 50s and prefer to be referred to as they/them, and over the last 15 years or so have been alert to using they/them as much as I can generally. I do this because if people don't know the sex of a person they seem automatically to call them Mr or he. It irritates the hell out of me, so they/them is my small way to attempt to neutralise how we refer to people and highlight sexism.

I think gender is a tool used to stereotype people and force them into increasingly narrow definitions, thought processes and ways of self expression, which of course means more and more people are going to believe they're a different gender if they don't conform to these ridiculous stereotypes.

Sex is important biologically. However, societally neutralising the stereotypes of feminine and masculine gender is all good imo.

Your post is a very clear argument for rejecting gender ideology altogether.

Once you do, you can then be free to express your personality in exactly the way you want to, without feeling that somehow you don’t fit, and that you need to identify as something else in order to feel you do fit.

If you reject gender (the notion of having to conform to a stereotype), there is no need to redefine yourself because you’ll be fine just as you are.

I have no idea why this solution isn’t blindingly obvious to anyone who wants to change their gender.

These are teenagers who are being manipulated and influenced not adults they need protecting - they are full of self doubt as is normal at thst age.