Non-binary pronouns change for my daughter

[Dollyplum]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and after searching, couldn't find any past threads for this.

My daughter now identifies as non-binary and has changed her name to reflect her new identity. She is now asking us to use they/them pronouns and tbh, we're really struggling with this. We don't have any issues with her wanting to be the person she wants to be, but I can't quite explain why we find the pronouns so hard to come to terms with. I guess from an old fashioned perspective, they/them is plural, and we have known her for nearly 14 years as a girl.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to handle this please? Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue. We have changed her name at school, dentist, etc. to her preferred name.

I'm sure other parents here have been through the same thing and any advice would be welcome please. Thank you so much :-) x

Nonsense

Concepts are more likely human interpretation of things which are often a response to environment. Martin Luther dream is a concept , an idea

Sex isn't a concept , it's more concrete than that , at the level of fact

It is about class and gender. A major part of why she kills herself is because she is pregnant.

You are born male or female - he or she pronouns 。 Babies aren’t gender neutral, they are born with either male or female organs. All the information that is purported to be educational is in my view against nature. These teenagers are being made to question their identity - the sooner it stops the better

@midgedude

Nonsense

Concepts are more likely human interpretation of things which are often a response to environment. Martin Luther dream is a concept , an idea

Sex isn't a concept , it's more concrete than that , at the level of fact

I don't disagree , I didn't say it wasn't.

My problem is the constant dismissing of gender. Telling people it's all made up is not going to make anyone to aw you're right, il go back to being female.

The reason people object to none binary is mostly because it requires gender and a binary gender as the norm

And as previously suggested , many people don't want any gender assigned to them and would rather not be restricted to any kind of gender norm

@Stripesnomore

It is about class and gender. A major part of why she kills herself is because she is pregnant.

But why would they need to get tied up in knots understanding why a woman without husband or resources getting pregnant, at that time, might cause her to kill herself?

And being pregnant is about biological Sex of course, not gender in the modern sense.

@twelly

You are born male or female - he or she pronouns 。 Babies aren’t gender neutral, they are born with either male or female organs. All the information that is purported to be educational is in my view against nature. These teenagers are being made to question their identity - the sooner it stops the better

Do you think it will stop?

It's on the curriculum., So it more than purports to be educational, unless you are claiming more than them. It is not the curriculum that is making them question themselves.

You don't seem to understand the difference between sex and gender. Of course babies are gender neutral. Gender is a social construct. So their anatomy isn't relevant

@midgedude

The reason people object to none binary is mostly because it requires gender and a binary gender as the norm

And as previously suggested , many people don't want any gender assigned to them and would rather not be restricted to any kind of gender norm

I can half see that midge, having read your previous posts.

But I don't think people can stop other people being non binary because they personally don't want to be restricted.

If gender identity roles and gender are not about biological sex, but are responses to sex, they are not a concept in their own right

No idea what you're trying to say there.

Gender is a theme in the play. Except people here would say it was not.

There’s a theme running through about women and the patriarchal society of the Edwardian times. Perhaps the teacher was trying to separate sex from gender. God knows.

The kids took it as a chance to tie her in knots. She didn’t understand what the difference was but tried her best to show she did - hence it taking up several lessons ...

Being female and having a female gender are not the same

You can be female without having any characteristics that fit societies idea of female

You can have the strength to reject it all , you don't need any label

But you can't outrun your biology ... your dna is what it is.

Personally I'd be quite happy if we all used they as the singular pronoun , I don't see why it's so necessary to highlight sex all the time and I have benefitted from being misgendered /sexed in a work context so I know that sexed pronouns harm women

@Impatiens

If gender identity roles and gender are not about biological sex, but are responses to sex, they are not a concept in their own right

No idea what you're trying to say there.

Gender and sex are two different things.

Rather than gender being a 'response' to sex.

It is about gender in the traditional sense - that it is about the social treatment of an unmarried woman.

The year DS did GCSE English literature the actual exam question was on gender in an Inspector Calls.

Fortunately we had discussed it beforehand - the expectation that Sheila is reprehensible even though she almost no power herself other than to get married. The pregnant woman being used to stand in as ‘Everyman’ even though her situation only applies to women. The high expectations placed on Gerald to achieve as a man. Mr Birling as head of the household as the patriarch. There’s loads in there on gender.

I have really detailed this thread.

@Dustyboots

Gender is a theme in the play. Except people here would say it was not.

There’s a theme running through about women and the patriarchal society of the Edwardian times. Perhaps the teacher was trying to separate sex from gender. God knows.

The kids took it as a chance to tie her in knots. She didn’t understand what the difference was but tried her best to show she did - hence it taking up several lessons ...

If gender isn’t a response to sex can you please explain why you keep using sex terms to describe gender.

If you could explain what gender is without constantly referring back to sex terms, it would be much clearer that you are trying to talk about.

@Stripesnomore

If gender isn’t a response to sex can you please explain why you keep using sex terms to describe gender.

If you could explain what gender is without constantly referring back to sex terms, it would be much clearer that you are trying to talk about.

Don't have a clue what you mean by this.

@midgedude

I think if you see everything around you strongly gendered , and you find you resonate with bits of both options , then it's very easy to feel none binary

Like if you believe that being a train spotter is only something boys do, but you do that and you are female , then clearly you are not totally female ( feminine)

I think the issue is that most of the challenges women face are related to their sex as women, not their preferred gender identity. You can't identify your way out of a patriarchal society, sexual assault, physical vulnerability, child rearing responsibilities, the pay gap, or any of the other biological and societal challenges that women face.

I can understand the temptation of not wanting to have to experience those problems and trying to distance yourself, but you cannot self-identify your way out of the problems women face. So it seems to me that a better and more effective approach would be to challenge those stereotypes and societal prejudices rather than to try and run away from your own biology and accept the entrenched sexism in society

Waltzing, teenagers do not stop identifying as female because they don't like the pay gap and sexual assault etc.

That is absurd.

Yes I do think challenging the gender assumptions and restrictions is the better way but the question was why do some people feel that they are none binary

Not everyone recognise that there is an alternative, not everyone has the strength to fight , not everyone recognise that they can't identify out of their sex

Rootytoot, I am trying to understand what you mean by gender. I have been very clear on what I mean by gender.

Do you think there is any kind of relationship between sex and gender? If not, why use the same terms for both?

There are male and female aurochs, but they don’t have a gender just a sex. If gender isn’t a response to sex or in some way related to sex, what do you mean when you keep saying gender?

Surely history is full of examples of women who pretended not to be due to sexism?

I think the issue is that most of the challenges women face are related to their sex as women, not their preferred gender identity. You can't identify your way out of a patriarchal society, sexual assault, physical vulnerability, child rearing responsibilities, the pay gap, or any of the other biological and societal challenges that women face.

So true. But doesn't every generation of young women think that they can? I certainly did. I didn't have a clear plan, exactly, but there was no way I was going to end up the boring workhorse housewife that my mother and her friends were. I had a vague idea education would help me, even though they all had degrees. Well, it didn't. And now Im living my mother's life, but less competently. So that's why I have have sympathy for trans and non binary teenagers. They want to identify out? Good luck with that. Maybe they know something I didn't.