Non-binary pronouns change for my daughter

[Dollyplum]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and after searching, couldn't find any past threads for this.

My daughter now identifies as non-binary and has changed her name to reflect her new identity. She is now asking us to use they/them pronouns and tbh, we're really struggling with this. We don't have any issues with her wanting to be the person she wants to be, but I can't quite explain why we find the pronouns so hard to come to terms with. I guess from an old fashioned perspective, they/them is plural, and we have known her for nearly 14 years as a girl.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to handle this please? Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue. We have changed her name at school, dentist, etc. to her preferred name.

I'm sure other parents here have been through the same thing and any advice would be welcome please. Thank you so much :-) x

It's the people go assume a gender of other people based on sex who are bigoted

Not understanding why it is taught and thinking it shouldn't be is two different things.

@Dustyboots

I don’t understand it.

My son was being ‘taught’ this at school recently. I want to know what it means and where the idea comes from.

What sort of things was your Son told about it Dusty boots?

I don't know where it came from but as you pointed out in your previous post it's not new to feel as if you don't 'fit' the stereotypes for men/women - pretty sure most people would say the same.

Trouble is, it's got linked in with a very toxic gender ideology.

@midgedude

It's the people go assume a gender of other people based on sex who are bigoted

By that theory, what's wrong with non binary and trans?

Don’t understand what?

I I understand the history of the concept of gender identity. It was developed from Freud’s ideas of psychosexual development and formed supposedly in the phallic stage as a consequence of the Oedipus complex, penis envy and rejection of the opposite sex parent. It was later developed by John Money (sp?) in the sixties in his experiments on the Reimer children.

I understand that it is a minority belief that you hold that gender identity is a separate idea to biological sexuality. Gender identity is in fact about people’s psychological understanding of their sexed body.

There has been an attempt to conflate gender identity with gender roles which are about masculinity and femininity or gender, which is the social and biological consequences of different treatment of men and women as groups.

I do not understand why people claim gender identity, gender roles or gender are not about biological sex when that clearly is what they have always referred to - social and psychological responses to biological sex.

@Stripesnomore

Don’t understand what?

I I understand the history of the concept of gender identity. It was developed from Freud’s ideas of psychosexual development and formed supposedly in the phallic stage as a consequence of the Oedipus complex, penis envy and rejection of the opposite sex parent. It was later developed by John Money (sp?) in the sixties in his experiments on the Reimer children.

I understand that it is a minority belief that you hold that gender identity is a separate idea to biological sexuality. Gender identity is in fact about people’s psychological understanding of their sexed body.

There has been an attempt to conflate gender identity with gender roles which are about masculinity and femininity or gender, which is the social and biological consequences of different treatment of men and women as groups.

I do not understand why people claim gender identity, gender roles or gender are not about biological sex when that clearly is what they have always referred to - social and psychological responses to biological sex.

They may be related to biological sex but they are not biological sex.

The denying of gender goes hand in hand with the anti trans movement that has absolutely exploded . Denying an entire concept exists is an odd way to go about it.

the anti trans movement that has absolutely exploded

No surprise there - people really hate being bullied and lied to.

I don't particularly agree with certain religious teachings but I don't pretend I don't understand them.

You probably don't understand them, though. People study and practice religion for years to gain understanding. You can reject religion instantly, but you can't instantly understand it.

@midgedude

It's the people go assume a gender of other people based on sex who are bigoted

Thats what i thought you meant

I don’t understand why youve been reported

@Impatiens

the anti trans movement that has absolutely exploded

No surprise there - people really hate being bullied and lied to.

But you can't eradicate an entire group of people by just denying gender as a concept.

Just as much manipulation and bullying goes on on the other side, anyone who pretends this is one way traffic is utterly delusional.

‘They may be related to biological sex but they are not biological sex.’

Saying they may be related to biological sex implies that they might not be.

If gender identity isn’t related to biological sex, why keep using words like male and female to refer to it, when they are related to male and female?

I don’t know of anybody who denies that gender exists. I know a great many people deny gender identity exist, and that the two concepts get conflated which causes further confusion.

My son’s English teacher spent 3 lessons teaching them what gender was - when they were learning about gender in An Inspector Calls. She spent ages tying them in knots over all this stuff.

But you can't eradicate an entire group of people by just denying gender as a concept.

But no one has denied that gender is a concept. So that's alright then.

@Impatiens

But you can't eradicate an entire group of people by just denying gender as a concept.

But no one has denied that gender is a concept. So that's alright then.

Eh? Are you reading the thread?

@Stripesnomore

‘They may be related to biological sex but they are not biological sex.’

Saying they may be related to biological sex implies that they might not be.

If gender identity isn’t related to biological sex, why keep using words like male and female to refer to it, when they are related to male and female?

I don’t know of anybody who denies that gender exists. I know a great many people deny gender identity exist, and that the two concepts get conflated which causes further confusion.

So what is the difference between gender and gender identity?

What about a person tells them that their gender is non binary? I can understand feeling you are trans and were born with the wrong body/sex but I struggle to understand how you know you are non binary?

@Dustyboots

My son’s English teacher spent 3 lessons teaching them what gender was - when they were learning about gender in An Inspector Calls. She spent ages tying them in knots over all this stuff.

What's it got to do with An Inspector Calls? Did she mean in reference to the girl who died? I thought it was more about class but perhaps it;s changed over the years.

At least it wasn't pshe. For a change.

I think everyone agrees it's a concept
And that some people find it very important to them

It's the value of the concept to society and the degree of support that the concept therefore merits that is questioned ( not the degree of support for people btw , for the concept )

Of course gender is a concept, like astrology, money and laws. Nobody has denied that.

Boots, this might help the teacher. From the world health organisation:

‘Gender is used to describe the characteristics of women and men that are socially constructed, while sex refers to those that are biologically determined.’

@Tal45

What about a person tells them that their gender is non binary? I can understand feeling you are trans and were born with the wrong body/sex but I struggle to understand how you know you are non binary?

That they are neither male nor female.

@Stripesnomore

Of course gender is a concept, like astrology, money and laws. Nobody has denied that.

Boots, this might help the teacher. From the world health organisation:

‘Gender is used to describe the characteristics of women and men that are socially constructed, while sex refers to those that are biologically determined.’

Right .

So what's wrong with people being non binary based on a social construct?

Eh? Are you reading the thread?

Can you show me where anyone said that gender doesn't exist as a concept?

It's part of the pse curriculum Impatiens. That will never change.

I've never seen any PSE teacher talk about gender for three periods though let alone an English teacher .

I think if you see everything around you strongly gendered , and you find you resonate with bits of both options , then it's very easy to feel none binary

Like if you believe that being a train spotter is only something boys do, but you do that and you are female , then clearly you are not totally female ( feminine)

@Stripesnomore

Don’t understand what?

I I understand the history of the concept of gender identity. It was developed from Freud’s ideas of psychosexual development and formed supposedly in the phallic stage as a consequence of the Oedipus complex, penis envy and rejection of the opposite sex parent. It was later developed by John Money (sp?) in the sixties in his experiments on the Reimer children.

I understand that it is a minority belief that you hold that gender identity is a separate idea to biological sexuality. Gender identity is in fact about people’s psychological understanding of their sexed body.

There has been an attempt to conflate gender identity with gender roles which are about masculinity and femininity or gender, which is the social and biological consequences of different treatment of men and women as groups.

I do not understand why people claim gender identity, gender roles or gender are not about biological sex when that clearly is what they have always referred to - social and psychological responses to biological sex.

@Impatiens

If gender identity roles and gender are not about biological sex, but are responses to sex, they are not a concept in their own right