Non-binary pronouns change for my daughter

[Dollyplum]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and after searching, couldn't find any past threads for this.

My daughter now identifies as non-binary and has changed her name to reflect her new identity. She is now asking us to use they/them pronouns and tbh, we're really struggling with this. We don't have any issues with her wanting to be the person she wants to be, but I can't quite explain why we find the pronouns so hard to come to terms with. I guess from an old fashioned perspective, they/them is plural, and we have known her for nearly 14 years as a girl.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to handle this please? Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue. We have changed her name at school, dentist, etc. to her preferred name.

I'm sure other parents here have been through the same thing and any advice would be welcome please. Thank you so much :-) x

@pumpkinbump

Yes pumpkin, I personally am doing that, because I'm that powerful. Me and only me

I stand by sinister. I wouldn't want you near my daughter.

If you wouldn't want anyone who works somewhere that generally tries to avoid using sex or gender based terms, particularly in the next few years, she will be very isolated.

The fact you are trying to paint me as some sort of villain because I tend to avoid saying the bloody words girls and boys/mums and dads to try and be as fluid as we can as I was taught in teacher training when you actively want me to call a child the wrong name despite a legal change is baffling.

Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue

I would say no, you're drawing the line at changing pronouns - you've done everything else she's asked and it's made her happier, you've shown respect for her choice. Now it's time for her to show respect for yours.

A child told by the likes of PPs that it's a load of nonsense and woo woo and get a grip will not go, aw ok you're right.

A parent who understands that gender isn't any more of a reality than a religion would more likely get through to a child. Most religious children are only that way because a parent also holds that belief - gender is no different. The issue is, and what we need to break, is the parents holding views that 'girls like dolls and make up, boys like football. Girls are kind, boys are loud and messy. Girls stay with their families, boys go off an do their own thing'. These views start at home, and then pushed further in the outside world. That's what needs to stop.

It's parents that need to learn to break out of gender expectations, and the children will learn from their environment. In the mean time, there needs to be a much bigger push in taking gender out of society in general. Toys aren't gendered, clothes aren't gendered, your likes and dislikes of sport or video games or playing with Barbies - none of those things has anything to do with being male or female. A bigger push is needed on female history, and why all discrimination against women has been based on their sex, their very biology. That being female has nothing to do with how your brain works but the biological and physiological differences between male and female have to be recognised. Teach the different between equality and fairness - that it may seem like equality to allow transwomen into women's sport, but it's not fairness. It's not people who need to change their individual self to fit thoughts in their head, it's society that needs to change to eradicate this vision of a gender utopia.

Hi all. We took this thread down to give us a chance to go through the many reports. We've removed a fair number of posts from this thread that break the Talk guidelines. We've reinstated it now - but please do bear in mind our guidelines on civil debate.

[quote pumpkinbump]@RootyT00t

I've done my research thank you. No child should be put on puberty blockers, no child can consent to a lifetime of medication. No child can consent to the loss of sexual function in later life. No child can consent to never being a parent. 1 is too many.

A person losing their job for publishing findings on how many desist after puberty is fine? Do you not think these statistics are relevant?[/quote]
DD isn't on puberty blockers. They've not asked or considered them. They've made it clear they don't wish to be male. They also don't wish to be traditionally female as per birth either.
Their attitude stemmed funnily enough from history at school. They learned about the suffragettes.
At the end, they were discussing the topic with me and I said about how amazing these women were, being force fed food when they went on hunger strike, dying for the cause in some cases, for the rights of women like us

Accept, they didn't agree. DD felt that for all the struggle, and yes, we can vote, we are still kept down. We are still put in our place. We are here to have babies. We are seen as less in the workplace than men. They asked what exactly did it really do in the longer term? That if men were go getters it was applauded but females were spoken of in derogatory terms for the same. They women get paid less for doing the same Job. That society still expects female to mean cute and fluffy and thigh gaps and tits.

We had a really good debate on it actually, and about a month later they sent me a whatsapp link to a piece about non binary and that if it was OK they wanted to explore that option. But they were very quick to say "don't worry, I'm not going to ask them to sew boy bits on me, I don't like boys and don't want to be one. I just don't want to be defined by my gender"

The fact they went, took time to think about what they wanted, and spoke to me in an adult way, explaining why, well, fair play.

And is it really so hard to use they or them? Why is it so frightening? You can't catch non-binary you know. They have friends who are very much fully still into girly stuff and that's OK by them.

I love that their generation is so much more accepting of each other.
I think It's a Sin was a big marker- in 99, Russell T Davis released queer as folk, and it caused all manner of anger about filth and morality. Yet here we are in 2021, and he's done another, hard hitting, in your face show about gay issues, and he's being applauded.

Why does it always take time for people to stop being scared of stuff that won't affect them directly? When are we actually going to learn?

I'm far more worried about the effect of Covid and lockdown on their MH than non-binary.

@Ihatefish

Whatever happened to tomboys? If you don’t like pink fluffy things as a teenage girl are you now non binary -Jesus I’m glad I’m old

exactly! so much attention seeking.

Hello

MN is primarily about parents offering each other support and advice. Parents asking for advice about gender issues with their own children will be hoping to receive thoughtful and compassionate responses to help them navigate a new situation. Lots of you did post in this way, so thank you. We've also had to delete quite a few posts that we thought were just really not in the spirit of a thread of this nature.

Parenting is hard and at times we all need a bit of support from people who've been in our shoes or have a constructive suggestion. We'd appreciate it if all MNers would approach these sorts of thread in that spirit.

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MNHQ

@Tiktokersmiracle - And is it really so hard to use they or them? Why is it so frightening? You can't catch non-binary you know. They have friends who are very much fully still into girly stuff and that's OK by them.

Well yes, it is hard because it feels unnatural - it's not impossible, sure, but it's awkward and goes against other people's reality. Why should her request take precedence over that?

Also I would say it's very much catching - a few years ago no one had heard of it, now parents and school staff are reporting it's everywhere in certain age groups.

I love that their generation is so much more accepting of each other.

If they were truly accepting of others they would accept them for what they are. And they would accept that other people don't have the same beliefs as they do.

[quote Impatiens]**@Tiktokersmiracle* - And is it really so hard to use they or them? Why is it so frightening? You can't catch non-binary you know. They have friends who are very much fully still into girly stuff and that's OK by them.*

Well yes, it is hard because it feels unnatural - it's not impossible, sure, but it's awkward and goes against other people's reality. Why should her request take precedence over that?

Also I would say it's very much catching - a few years ago no one had heard of it, now parents and school staff are reporting it's everywhere in certain age groups.

I love that their generation is so much more accepting of each other.

If they were truly accepting of others they would accept them for what they are. And they would accept that other people don't have the same beliefs as they do.[/quote]
But DD being non binary is what they are!

That's why their mates are cool with it

It doesn't change their personality but it does make them feel more confident, more comfortable.
Being a teen is so hard, I think harder now even before covid than my era.
Social media is a bigger danger to teens tham being non binary. Especially I feel for girls. Boys have ready access to porn, and images of influencers in skanty bikinis. As a result, their expectations are different on how all women should look
And teenage girls have long had body issues but now they see these Uber babes out there with their thigh gaps and their big boobs and they don't immediately think "Photoshop" they feel lesser because they're natural shape doesn't compare.
I wish we lived in an era where they all rejected the bullshit, but we don't.
DD fancies girls, but they don't like fake types. They in fact got upset because a good friend made herself ill aspiring to be like one of the Jenner girls. DD couldn't fathom it.

I think it's a rally cry against this new aesthetic. If we are neither boy not girl, we will be what we want. You can't compartmentalise it that way.

DD said for years they were called such a pretty girl, as if that was all they'd ever be. So they rejected it.

DD said for years they were called such a pretty girl, as if that was all they'd ever be. So they rejected it.

And I totally totally get that. After all, this is nothing new.
Women/Girls have been trying to break free of the stereotypes imposed on them, the damaging expectations of society since - well probably since forever! Meanwhile, other Women/Girls choose to try to play the stereotype game - with all the resulting body issues and sadness and mental health issues that so often go along with that.

I said in a post last night before the thread was suspended that I think NB is the more benign wing of Gender Ideology as it doesn't have to involve a new persona/drugs/surgeries etc. I think it's fine for anyone to find a way to identify - but you have to accept that's what NB is? It's not 'what they are', it's how they choose to identify and those are two very different things. It's also categorically NOT fine to try to impose your beliefs on other people who don't share them

If Sam Smith chooses to id as NB that's fine (although he seems a bit confused as to what he means by it) - but he's still a male and society knows that, just as society knows your dd is female.

@Impatiens

DD said for years they were called such a pretty girl, as if that was all they'd ever be. So they rejected it.

And I totally totally get that. After all, this is nothing new.
Women/Girls have been trying to break free of the stereotypes imposed on them, the damaging expectations of society since - well probably since forever! Meanwhile, other Women/Girls choose to try to play the stereotype game - with all the resulting body issues and sadness and mental health issues that so often go along with that.

I said in a post last night before the thread was suspended that I think NB is the more benign wing of Gender Ideology as it doesn't have to involve a new persona/drugs/surgeries etc. I think it's fine for anyone to find a way to identify - but you have to accept that's what NB is? It's not 'what they are', it's how they choose to identify and those are two very different things. It's also categorically NOT fine to try to impose your beliefs on other people who don't share them

If Sam Smith chooses to id as NB that's fine (although he seems a bit confused as to what he means by it) - but he's still a male and society knows that, just as society knows your dd is female.

I tend to feel that's what they are right now.

I'm in a somewhat privileged position in DPs family of us having the youngest DC's. I have nieces and nephews from mid-30s with their own children to 21/22 and the youngest before my two is 18. So I've watched them grow up.
I've seen goth, tracksuits, Tom boys. I've seen one get themselves in all manner of trouble and get out the other side. One who was constantly up A+E or in plaster from skateboarding. One who rejected uni and now runs a successful business when for a while we all worried.

So I know full well this is the thing now. How long will it go on? No idea. I know my niece went through a similar stage of rejecting girly stuff between about 13 and 15. She's now better at make up than anyone I know.

Will DD grow out of it? Possibly.

However, for now, I want them to trust me. To know they can openly chat to me. They felt that way when they told me they fancied girls not boys. Followed by "that's ok isn't mum?". They knew it was.

If I felt it was making them unwell the I think of course my opinion would be different. As fads go I grant you it's an interesting one.

But I don't think parenting is ever easy. Neither is growing up. But in our home we rather have open discussion and no fear of anger or refusal to just say they and them. It makes DD happy.

Changing the child's name in official areas like dentist, doc etc, makes it that much harder for a child to drop the idea later without embarrassment. I honestly wouldn't have done that. I'd keep it all lighthearted as a pp said but make it clear that any official changes would be post 16.

@Tiktokersmiracle - But I don't think parenting is ever easy. Neither is growing up. But in our home we rather have open discussion and no fear of anger or refusal to just say they and them. It makes DD happy.

Which is fine, in your own home with your acceptance. You're doing what's best for your family and I don't judge that. But you were asking why people found it hard to use pronouns, I explained why - and I think that should be respected as well.

It's a shame that your dd doesn't currently recognise the benefits brought about by Women in the past, who fought for the rights she/we have now and which are far better than in a lot of countries. I've realised in recent times, with the rise of trans activism, we can never take these rights for granted and have to defend them against an often misogynist society.

I know my niece went through a similar stage of rejecting girly stuff between about 13 and 15. She's now better at make up than anyone I know.

That's pretty depressing tbh.

@FamilyOfAliens

Having worked in schools for 18 years I can absolutely refute the claim that school staff don’t refer to boys and girls as boys and girls.

I know the Sex Education Forum had the view a couple of years that the words were “problematic” but I don’t think anyone paid them much attention.

But I’m still interested to know what words you use @RootyT00t instead of the words boys and girls.

I didn't say they don't.

I said IME the don't. With the thread going and coming back I've missed stuff but you appeared to imply to pumpkin I thought that I made stuff up? Just like my other evidence on this thread? Something along those lines?

That would be an utterly bizarre thing to make up. I also have given no evidence as I don't have any, just anecdotal.

Can I assume you're in primary? I've seen it used a lot in primary but not so much in the secondaries I've worked in.

In answer to your question (not sure why you're asking since you think I'm lying), it's not often I need to separate the two. The name I call my particular collective would be outing , but folks, everyone, class is common use.

I'm not saying it never happens. My response was to a PP who said that if they had our non binary child they would avoid gendered terms. I said we don't really use them anyway. We don't. I never spoke for the system as a whole.

I'm not sure why you think this to be an elaborate lie.

@BrumBoo

A child told by the likes of PPs that it's a load of nonsense and woo woo and get a grip will not go, aw ok you're right.

A parent who understands that gender isn't any more of a reality than a religion would more likely get through to a child. Most religious children are only that way because a parent also holds that belief - gender is no different. The issue is, and what we need to break, is the parents holding views that 'girls like dolls and make up, boys like football. Girls are kind, boys are loud and messy. Girls stay with their families, boys go off an do their own thing'. These views start at home, and then pushed further in the outside world. That's what needs to stop.

It's parents that need to learn to break out of gender expectations, and the children will learn from their environment. In the mean time, there needs to be a much bigger push in taking gender out of society in general. Toys aren't gendered, clothes aren't gendered, your likes and dislikes of sport or video games or playing with Barbies - none of those things has anything to do with being male or female. A bigger push is needed on female history, and why all discrimination against women has been based on their sex, their very biology. That being female has nothing to do with how your brain works but the biological and physiological differences between male and female have to be recognised. Teach the different between equality and fairness - that it may seem like equality to allow transwomen into women's sport, but it's not fairness. It's not people who need to change their individual self to fit thoughts in their head, it's society that needs to change to eradicate this vision of a gender utopia.

I don't disagree Brum 💖

My DD now identifies as a boy and we are having to adjust to using male pronouns for him. It is hard and he gets extremely angry when we forget but we are trying our best. I have spoken to his school who have been amazing and all our friends have too.

We think it is extremely quick and have refused to get him breast binders or source puberty blockers on the Internet. But we will use his preferred pronouns and name. He recently tried to take his own life through overdose so we will literally do anything he wants at this point.

I will say this though- it is exhausting. All he talks about is this subject and I know that's because it matters so much to him at the moment but good grief. I just want to watch the telly and drink my wine; not have another conversation about dyaphoria or the treatment of trans people in America.

Teenagers change their mind all the time about everything and hopefully it is a phase. Social media and isolation have given them too much time to focus on things they wouldn’t normally think about.

I think it is so sad that young girls think that the way to try and escape the oppression that they feel is to identify as 'non-binary'. It's not the answer, and they will come to that realisation and feel even more let down.

I can’t believe no binary being treated as a storm in a tea cup is being compared to genuine oppression that gay men faced during the AIDS epidemic.

@BarbaraofKent they're so young, I just think it's really difficult for them to navigate the minefield of expectations and pressures. Being able to say 'I'm non-binary' might be a useful way of putting the brakes on.