Do you think the English, if given a vote, would vote for independence from the rest of the UK?

[Kendodd]

Yabu - No they wouldn't
Yanbu - Yes they would

The break up of the UK seems high chance to me, maybe 60/40 to be voted for within the next ten years. They don't ever seem to ask the English what would you personally vote?

The SNP need to be very careful in saying that they did not have agreement or certain parties do not count. Given their strategy they need to persuade a lot of people of their sincerity and validity. You can't play political games like that in court. It will come out if you do.

To be fair @YoniAndGuy, if the leader of the Scottish Tories seems to think it part of the Edinburgh agreement, when he REALLY should know better, what hope is there for anyone else.

@DGRossetti

Shame the UK government isn't quite as good as sticking to other promises as well as it does "once in a generation", isn't it ?

DGRossetti, I get that you don't like HMG, but seriously, given the relative power imbalance, you will not get anywhere with that argument legally. They will have an excellent argument to say that the SG made an agreement and power was exercised on that basis. You can't then swinney around and say but I didn't mean it at the time.Both HMG and SG presumably were sincere at the time or it could never have happened at all.

There’s one shot at another referendum and until basic questions around a central bank, currency, how to deal with the deficit and the relationship with the EU can be answered it is unlikely that full self governance will trump economics. It’s not like Brexit where the large economy could be used to argue that economic pain could be absorbed and then outgrown due to the benefits. There is a cliff edge to Scexit and no certainty about how to borrow money affordable once independent.

Better to wait for the Brexit dust to settle and to find convincing answers to the above. However weak Tory governance is it’s likely to last at least an election cycle longer which will keep the fires burning.

@YoniAndGuy

I love the way the 'once in a generation' comment has not only been taken out of context but is usually followed by a convenient sidestep around one of the main platforms of the whole thing - that one of the main arguments for NO was membership of the EU.

Honestly among folk I know, it is the stupidity and hypocrisy of the unionist side coming back to that point so foolishly that comes up again and again. Why do they do it?! Why do they remind Scots of that?! It's like a bloody big klaxon advertising how No voters were sold down the river by Brexit. It's probably done more to push No voters to Yes than anything else.

That argument is going to be very very relevant to whether the SG gets the power to run its own referendum. There is no vote yet - thats why this matters.

It’s not like Brexit where the large economy could be used to argue that economic pain could be absorbed and then outgrown due to the benefits.

That was never advanced in the Brexit referendum. It's only after the result that the narrative of "oh dear, it's going to take 50 years to get back to where we were" started.

It’s an interesting argument that leaving a union of 4 where Scotland is a significant member and joining a larger union of what would be 29 would increase independence and self governance and be preferable.

And the reason the once in a generation argument is powerful is because that was a key factor in the referendum occurring, to settle the question for a generation, or until a ‘generational gap’.

There seems to be some confusion that academic

... rerences are needed to prove the widely held agreement, that it was a once in a generation referendum.

There seems to be some confusion that academic rerences are needed to prove the widely held agreement, that it was a once in a generation referendum

There seems to be some confusion in that some people think that was an agreement. If it was, then there would be a record of it somewhere.

All there is, is one man stating his own opinion

And as for the arguement that Scotland would have a lesser say on its own affairs within the EU than it would within the UK. Well, now I'm convinced you are just trying to wind people up 🤣

Lol. Bored on half term.

I’m English enough not to be too bothered but it would be a shame to lose Scotland due to the strong ties.

Always happy to agree to disagree.

@Nezza121 - you are on the money. All that matters is what the SG said to HMG. And that will be confirmed due to the discussion and grant of section 30, in the papers between both governments, concluded by Cameron and Salmond, disclosed in court. A non issue.

In other words, the public blather is not important.

All there is, is one man stating his own opinion

Yep. A piece of rhetoric. Like the one when UK prime Minister Bo Jo promised to die in a ditch rather than do something he went ahead and did a short time later.

Dump Blo Jo's body by the side of the road and the 'Once in a Generation' argument might have some validity.

Until then it's just unionists knee jerk school playground whining, "But, miss, he said...."

I know people don't like Boris Johnson but you would have had to be quite determined to imagine he will stick to one line as PM. Even before he became an actual politician if challenged he was very evasive. The curiosity is why people thought he might be different as PM and elected him. Or maybe in spite of it, perhaps.

Anyway, I saw that the judiciary neatly stepped out of the way on Keatings today - premature, apparently.

AGREEMENT between the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government on a referendum on independence for Scotland.

The United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government have agreed to work together to ensure that a referendum on Scottish independence can take place.

The governments have agreed that the referendum should:

• have a clear legal base;

• be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament;

• be conducted so as to command the confidence of parliaments, government and people; and

• deliver a fair test and decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland and a result that everyone will respect.

The governments have agreed to promote an Order in Council under Section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 in the United Kingdom and Scottish Parliaments to allow a single question referendum on Scottish independence to be held before the end of 2014. The Order will put beyond doubt that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for the referendum.

It will then be for the Scottish Government to promote legislation in the Scottish Parliament for a referendum on independence. The governments are agreed that the referendum should meet the highest standards of fairness, transparency and propriety, informed by consultation and independent expert advice. The referendum legislation will set out:- the date of the referendum;

• the franchise;

• the wording of the question;

• rules on campaign financing; and

• other rules for the conduct of the referendum.

The details of the agreement between the governments are set out in the following memorandum and draft Order, which forms part of this agreement.

SIGNED

The Rt. Hon. David Cameron MP Prime Minister

The Rt. Hon. Alex Salmond MSP First Minister of Scotland

The Rt. Hon. Michael Moore MP Secretary of State for Scotland

Nicola Sturgeon MSP Deputy First Minister of Scotland

Edinburgh, 15 October 2012

www.heraldscotland.com/news/13077067.the-text-of-the-edinburgh-agreement-in-full/

Not a word about "once in a generation".

If it were that simple, you'd have won already, wouldn't you?

@LexMitior

I know people don't like Boris Johnson but you would have had to be quite determined to imagine he will stick to one line as PM. Even before he became an actual politician if challenged he was very evasive. The curiosity is why people thought he might be different as PM and elected him. Or maybe in spite of it, perhaps.

Anyway, I saw that the judiciary neatly stepped out of the way on Keatings today - premature, apparently.

I wasn't aware of that Keatings update, last I heard (16th) Keatings is asked for an expedited appeal to the "premature" decision, given the SNP gvt announced their amazing 11 point plan for indy (inc indyref2, sort of) the very day after the verdict came through... he hopes to be heard on Friday.

Update on Peoples Action on Section 30

Dear Backers,

I am writing to advise that there will be a hearing in the #PeoplesAS30, likely on Friday. The Court of Session wishes to be addressed with regards to a motion we have put forward for "urgent disposal". In simple terms, it's a motion to expedite the case through the Inner House of the Court of Session for the purposes of having it dealt with before the election.

The hearing will likely be before Lord Malcolm.

I shall write to you again in the coming days as I know more.

Martin

Mea culpa - I see what I referred to was on 6th Feb and there is an application as you say.

However, there were other more substantial reasons for refusal referred to in that decision which I think means the application will be refused also.

Courts will be incredibly reluctant to rule on these matters, particularly because of the SNP and SG's plan. Keatings is actually I imagine an annoyance to them because if you get judicial comment on the claim, it could seriously mess up the SNP strategy for independence. I know Michael Keatings isn't SNP but pro independence but when you may legislate and any government has said so, then the courts don't wish to rule against that intention and will legitimately say they can't.

Anyway, we will see....

Martin Keatings!

The Scottish Government has been doing everything it can to shut him up, which I find strange. Their "plan" is to announce indyref and let Boris take them to court, I don't understand why they don't want to establish the legal parameters in advance. We will see, as you say, and I'm fascinated!

@HirplesWithHaggis Me too! I know we are on opposite sides (me union, you independence) but professionally I find this interesting!

No skin in the game any more but can't help looking at this sliding tile puzzle that is the constitutions of these countries and how they interact.

I'd give you a "like" for that if I could. :)

Thank you! I am anti nationalist and SNP, but I do respect the idea of Scottish independence. It was something that my grandmother always talked about, the freedom of a Scottish Parliament.

There is a respectable argument for independence which is independent of the SNP.

We agree again! I'll be voting ISP on the list, haven't decided whether to hold my nose and vote SNP on the constituency, leave it blank, or spoil it with a "stuff your GRA and Hate Crimes" message. So sad to see the party that always had independence at its core lose it like this. :(

With regard Scotland being unable to afford independence, I wonder if Scotland as a whole would be poorer but the people would be better off? In that they might decide they don't want the huge extremes of wealth and poverty that we love so much in the UK? Thought inspired by the Texas thread.