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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Do you think the English, if given a vote, would vote for independence from the rest of the UK?

685 replies

Kendodd · 15/02/2021 13:23

Yabu - No they wouldn't
Yanbu - Yes they would

The break up of the UK seems high chance to me, maybe 60/40 to be voted for within the next ten years. They don't ever seem to ask the English what would you personally vote?

OP posts:
luckylavender · 18/02/2021 06:50

@XingMing - why countries want independence in one sentence.

@zafferana - I just have no idea. I'd much rather it didn't happen but I can understand why it may.

DGRossetti · 18/02/2021 09:36

Used to be women needed their husbands permission to divorce.

Nezza121 · 18/02/2021 11:38

Is that the same as requesting a once in a generation referendum and putting it to the electorate?

DynamoKev · 18/02/2021 12:12

@DGRossetti

Used to be women needed their husbands permission to divorce.
Er - it's a little-known fact that it's still theoretically possible to contest a divorce. It even happens occasionally.
luckylavender · 18/02/2021 12:43

@Daphnise - shocking attitude. You think we should be grateful for scraps from your table? You think we contribute nothing? Attitudes like yours are why the Union is in peril. And I live in England, though Welsh.

YoniAndGuy · 18/02/2021 13:02

I think the percentage of people who would have enough intelligence to draw a cross in a box would be more likely to join those fleeing to the outer edges, as far away from what is undoubtedly an English Brexit, an English Tory party.

I think the rest would just be confused by the question. I honestly don't think they see Engerlund as part of anything, it IS the country.

The union will break up in the wake of Brexit.

BidensWingWoman · 18/02/2021 13:06

I honestly don't think they see Engerlund as part of anything, it IS the country

That's definitely true of some. I've been introduced or described as English by English people who were utterly bemused by the idea that I wasn't. I mean, my accent is a bit of a giveaway... 😂

YoniAndGuy · 18/02/2021 13:07

Also. So much chat about Scotland. But - it will be how Ireland has been treated by the Tories which will clinch it. Ireland will be the catalyst for Scotland's referendum.

Nezza121 · 18/02/2021 13:17

@YoniAndGuy

Also. So much chat about Scotland. But - it will be how Ireland has been treated by the Tories which will clinch it. Ireland will be the catalyst for Scotland's referendum.
Isn't there a significant difference between NI and Scotland though? In NI the agreement is to hold a referendum if there seems to be a majority for NIXET and there hasn't been one for decades, whereas Scotland held one recently (in constitutional terms, and agreed to be once in a generation by all parties) and it requires the agreement of the leader of the UK to hold another
BidensWingWoman · 18/02/2021 13:21

and agreed to be once in a generation by all parties

Evidence?

Nezza121 · 18/02/2021 13:23

@BidensWingWoman

and agreed to be once in a generation by all parties

Evidence?

www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-scotland-29196661
BidensWingWoman · 18/02/2021 13:25

That's evidence that Salmond made the comment once in one interview. I knew that.

What I haven't seen is any evidence that was anything like a legal standpoint, or that it was, as you claim, agreed by all parties

BidensWingWoman · 18/02/2021 13:29

'in my opinion, and this is just my opinion, this is a once in a generation opportunity' is the complete quote, in case you missed that.

DGRossetti · 18/02/2021 13:36

Er - it's a little-known fact that it's still theoretically possible to contest a divorce. It even happens occasionally.

Yes, but these days it's symmetrical. Previously if a husband said no, that was that. Whereas it seems to be Scotland needs Englands permission for divorce, whereas England doesn't need, nor give two shits about Scotlands thoughts on England leaving the union.

Nezza121 · 18/02/2021 13:46

@BidensWingWoman

'in my opinion, and this is just my opinion, this is a once in a generation opportunity' is the complete quote, in case you missed that.
Lol. Clutching at straws. Legally, it’s up to Bojo so a quickly found quote on Google doesn’t need to jump through arbitrarily decided hoops on here. Sure there are many, many other examples too.

The real mistake was the timing of the last referendum which was held too soon. If it waited until after Brexit there’s no argument against it. At the moment it’s a proportion of the electorate seeking referenda until they get the answer they want

BidensWingWoman · 18/02/2021 13:49

I'm not clutching at anything. You are the one making up facts!

Nezza121 · 18/02/2021 13:51

Evidence?

BidensWingWoman · 18/02/2021 13:52

agreed to be once in a generation by all parties

Here's your evidence

LexMitior · 18/02/2021 14:03

@BidensWingWoman

That's evidence that Salmond made the comment once in one interview. I knew that.

What I haven't seen is any evidence that was anything like a legal standpoint, or that it was, as you claim, agreed by all parties

It was certainly said more than once by Alex Salmond.

But of course, the SG don't have any real power to affect the grant of section 30. That power belongs to the Prime Minister. The discussion however will have been noted between the SG and HMG. That will be disclosed in any court case that comes. I suspect it will be a real issue to say it was not officially part of the recorded reason for the referendum.

Of course the SNP now say that Brexit will have voided that agreement, and that is NS's argument. It has to be, and then she has to say that she has the right to legislate on it (she doesn't).

It is a massively ballsy argument for which she must have some very good lawyers. If she loses, or indeed the Keatings case (what a pain that must be to her) then effectively, the SNP will confirm what the law is, that the power can only ever be exercised by the Prime Minister of the UK. In other words, the current position that applies for cemented in Scottish law due to the SNP and activist action. They have to be sure to win or it is a huge risk.

LexMitior · 18/02/2021 14:07

If she loses, then the choices are -

a) moral pressure on Westminster
b) illegal referendum
c) agree with Westminster that after a number of years after Brexit there will be another referendum.
d) resign - chiefly because her supporters are super pissed that they will never have the power to order a referendum and they know it

BidensWingWoman · 18/02/2021 14:08

It was certainly said more than once by Alex Salmond

That doesn't suddenly mean it was agreed by all parties, which was that interview was supposed to show..

LexMitior · 18/02/2021 14:09

A final option is that simply Westminster refuse to give legitimacy and the other parties do not participate in any referendum which the SNP say is legally binding. The union parties do not participate and then the referendum is by any reasonable public law principle not binding.

The SNP need some good lawyers for this.

LexMitior · 18/02/2021 14:10

@BidensWingWoman

It was certainly said more than once by Alex Salmond

That doesn't suddenly mean it was agreed by all parties, which was that interview was supposed to show..

You need to understand this was part of agreement between the two governments at the time. Its quite wrong to say not.
YoniAndGuy · 18/02/2021 14:10

I love the way the 'once in a generation' comment has not only been taken out of context but is usually followed by a convenient sidestep around one of the main platforms of the whole thing - that one of the main arguments for NO was membership of the EU.

Honestly among folk I know, it is the stupidity and hypocrisy of the unionist side coming back to that point so foolishly that comes up again and again. Why do they do it?! Why do they remind Scots of that?! It's like a bloody big klaxon advertising how No voters were sold down the river by Brexit. It's probably done more to push No voters to Yes than anything else.

DGRossetti · 18/02/2021 14:12

Shame the UK government isn't quite as good as sticking to other promises as well as it does "once in a generation", isn't it ?