What do we think about THIS....Trigger warning - Graphic Image **title edited by MNHQ

[Nothappywiththis]

I’m not in support of thus. AIBU??

I always think this example from the World Athletics Mixed Relay final hammers home the differences between elite female and male runners. The key moment starts at 8:00.

I’m one of the 97%. I really can’t see how anyone can disagree - even if you disagreed at the start of the thread once you have read the links etc surely you can understand.

@andyoldlabour that was fantastic! Thank you, I really enjoyed that.

The power with which Cherry overtook was phenomenal.

Just watching the athletes come out in their quads was fascinating, in this context. Never any doubt as two who the male and female runners were, even when the height and build wasn't dramatically different. In most teams, height and build were dramatically different though.

Feeling a bit pissed off that I haven't got the ability to overtake that Cherry bloke, even if I actually tried. I mean, I did the couch to 5k a couple of years ago, I'm sure I'd be in with a chance if I wasn't for these pesky chromosomes.

Anecdotal tale. Back in the mid seventies before I left school, one of my mates was in a rock band, he was 17, a year above me. He could also run a bit. He broke the school 100m record on a grass track with a time of 10.6s. He wasn't in a club or anything like that.
Dina Asher Smith holds the women's 100m record @ 10.83s

I should have said the UK record.

As Flojo' s 100 metre world record( unbroken by any woman since, possibly because it was obtained using performance enhancing drugs) has been broken by a large number of American high school boy sprinters, it is not surprising that a non elite male could break a female record.

@VioletAlder

Recognising someone’s sex is far less important to men’s personal safety and survival. Women have honed the skill over millennia because we have to for our safety (and that if our children)

Yes, exactly - & it's automatic & instinctive.

There was absolutely nothing threatening about this person. They were charming. None of us had any reason to be in 'identifying a threat' mode.

All the same, every single man in the group saw a beautiful 'woman' in their late 20s with a rather older, pleasant looking but unremarkable bloke & basically thought: 'lucky guy - wonder how he managed to pull her!' whilst every single woman was immediately aware that the younger half of the couple was a very pretty young male.

It's baked in pattern recognition.

That is fascinating - and true. We just know because it's important to know.

@Bluntasduck

No one should be doing this "sport" anyway

This. Beating the shit out of someone is not a sport anyway, it's senseless violence and really quite horrific. Wish they'd ban it completely.

This. Beating the shit out of someone is not a sport anyway, it's senseless violence and really quite horrific. Wish they'd ban it completely

Spectacularly misses the point. Other women are free to make choices that you don't approve of. Or do women's rights only matter if they want to do things that you also want to do?

Right. So you get round having to take a moral stance on this by banning MMA. What next?

Are you going to ban boxing, taekwondo (Olympic sport), judo (Olympic sport), and karate (was going to be featured in the Olympics proper for the first time in the 2020 events), too?

If the roles were reversed and someone born female but now identifying as male competed against a born-male competitor, I would expect equally horrific results
I completely agree that simply judging by weight and or height does not in any way, equalise the competition.

But, playing devils advocate, is there a suitable arena or opportunity for trans women (and men) to compete at high -level sport? Without being too ignorant would there be enough suitable candidates to have their own competitions in all sports, in all categories....and if not would that be seen as discrimination...?

Those of you who don't see this as a problem I'd ask you to look at this photo again, posted earlier.

What would you say to one of the actual girls who has lost out to a boy? Again? And possible dreams of a scholarship have gone up in smoke.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY? She's someone's daughter FFS.

But, playing devils advocate, is there a suitable arena or opportunity for trans women (and men) to compete at high -level sport? Without being too ignorant would there be enough suitable candidates to have their own competitions in all sports, in all categories....and if not would that be seen as discrimination...?

No, probably not. But it doesn't mean born males should play in women's sport because there are no other opportunities. And in all honesty, for many of them, they wouldn't be elite players in women's sport if they hadn't been born male anyway. They would be mediocre competitor's in men's sport. To have sex based provision is not discrimination. Gender identity is not the same as sex.

@Hepsie

But, playing devils advocate, is there a suitable arena or opportunity for trans women (and men) to compete at high -level sport? Without being too ignorant would there be enough suitable candidates to have their own competitions in all sports, in all categories....and if not would that be seen as discrimination...?

No, probably not. But it doesn't mean born males should play in women's sport because there are no other opportunities. And in all honesty, for many of them, they wouldn't be elite players in women's sport if they hadn't been born male anyway. They would be mediocre competitor's in men's sport. To have sex based provision is not discrimination. Gender identity is not the same as sex.

Agree - I don't think they should compete in womens sport, for all the reasons of physical inequality that have already been listed...

Im just saying that it could be portrayed as discrimination...

Im just saying that it could be portrayed as discrimination.

How?

There are transwomen competing at high levels in sport and they do not take women's spots. How is this possible? Easy they play in the men's teams.

@334bu

There are transwomen competing at high levels in sport and they do not take women's spots. How is this possible? Easy they play in the men's teams.

So born as men?

Im just saying that it could be portrayed as discrimination

It IS discrimination though. Just like it is discrimination that adults don’t compete against children, that able bodied people don’t compete against those with disabilities.

Life is hard sometimes, but people simply cannot enter categories based on their desire to.

All identifying as women though born male.
Several top ranking Muy Thai competitors who fight against men and below an American Samoan transwomen who plays football in the international male team.

Yes! Because elite male athletes who choose to transition will continue to be elite male athletes:

More kudos
More opportunity
More money

It's only the not so good male athletes that want to join women's sport, where they will, by mere dint of being born male, take top spots in the vast majoirty of sports.

Or the too old for their own sex group. Age slows you down but if you are male the chasm between male and female performance means you can still win at an age when women are facing the menopause

True! We have certainly seen that quite a few times over the last couple of years!

I don't agree with mixed competitive fighting but as the dp of a fighter alot of you really undersell women's ability in this sport

I'm also trained and me and dp are same weight category and have sparred/fought before

She'd beat me every time as she's a much better fighter than me. I am physically stronger though. Mostly an untrained fighter will not beat a capable fighter regardless of sex unless there's a serious weight imbalance or a lucky shot

@Chanjer

I don't agree with mixed competitive fighting but as the dp of a fighter alot of you really undersell women's ability in this sport

I'm also trained and me and dp are same weight category and have sparred/fought before

She'd beat me every time as she's a much better fighter than me. I am physically stronger though. Mostly an untrained fighter will not beat a capable fighter regardless of sex unless there's a serious weight imbalance or a lucky shot

Have you, honestly, ever hit your dp as hard as you would a man you were up against?

I am female, similar size/weight to my dp. When sparring/fighting I have never hit him as hard as I would an opponent! I like him! I usually win too, but am fully aware that, when my training advantage is done he could floor me with one punch!

And one person doesn't make an exception. The physical facts remain regardless of individual differences.