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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Childminder kicking out child for not being potty trained is she BU?

477 replies

minniemango · 14/02/2021 14:04

My niece is currently not able to attend her childminder as SIL isn't a keyworker. SIL has contacted childminder about care resuming from March 8th and been told she will only have DN back if SIL can guarantee she will have no accidents.
Is the childminder being unreasonable, is this even allowed?
DN is 5 and in Reception, no SEN.

OP posts:
MichelleofzeResistance · 14/02/2021 15:10

Tibtom you're right, and if the minder had refused to take the child at all in the first place because of continence needs without looking at reasonable adjustments that might be discriminatory.

If however the minder has cared for the child, has made those reasonable adjustments, has repeatedly asked parents to get services involved (as the Equality Act process requires) to help improve the situation but the parents aren't willing - we don't know the minder's risk assessment of this, her ratios, the other demands on her time, there will be lots of factors she is balancing. But the minder may very well be able to demonstrate she has done everything she can for this child and since the current situation won't be changing, she can no longer meet this child's needs.

That isn't discrimination, that's reaching the end of what reasonable adjustments are in her power to make without family help. It isn't discrimination to no longer be able to manage a child's needs.

Greenmarmalade · 14/02/2021 15:11

I wouldn’t want to send her to that childminder as she wouldn’t be very sympathetic and kind when cleaning the 5 year old, so might make the problem worse and would certainly make the child feel bad.

JustLyra · 14/02/2021 15:12

@Tibtom

All these posters saying it is not a disability then insisting the child should visit the GP because something is wrong?!? There also appears to be a lack of understanding about SEN if you think it is always identifed by 5. Huge numbers of children are diagnosed as autistic, adhd, dyspraxic, sensory processing disorders after they turn 5. Possibly even the majority.
It's not illegal for a CM to refuse care for a child she doesn't feel able to care for. Regardless if it's disability related or not.

Faecal incontinance is also not a protected characteristic.

ddl1 · 14/02/2021 15:12

Faecal incontinence may be caused by a disability, but it is not a disability on its own: it's a possible symptom of one. If the child's parents think it might be due to a disability, that's even more reason to get medical attention.

midgedude · 14/02/2021 15:12

Anyone tries to raise a discrimination claim may find other authorities involved . And they won't be investing the childminder

The child needs to be seen by a doctor,

Tibtom · 14/02/2021 15:12

[quote AccidentallyOnPurpose]@Tibtom you're talking bollocks. Not if the CM does not have the facilities to cope with it, the correct ratios or whatever else which puts other children in her care at risk.

It would be like parents sending a diabetic or asthmatic child in with no diagnosis or treatment and expecting the CM to pick up the slack and manage somehow with no effort on their part. It wouldn't be discrimination to say I don't want this child in my setting as I can't safely care for them.[/quote]
Would it also be like a school saying we don't want to put ramps in so we won't take a child in a wheelchair. Or we don't want to train up our teachers so we won't take dyslexic pupils. Or a GP saying 'I don't speak Urdu so I am not prepared to have you as a patient'? Do you think those examples are not discriminatory either?

oblada · 14/02/2021 15:12

I'd be very surprised if the child wasn't suffering from a condition amounting to a disability to be honest. To soil herself daily at that age isn't normal.
Assuming it's a disability (or perceived disability) then the childminder needs to show that she cannot put reasonable adjustments in place. Whilst I don't blame her not wanting to deal with the child it doesn't mean she shouldn't.
First port of call really is an actual medical professional, not a friend..

purplecorkheart · 14/02/2021 15:12

I am sorry but it sounds like the childminder has given it plenty of time for your relative to rectify the situation and they have not.

Your relative sounds like a relative of mine and to be honest it was the school who gave the parents a massive kick up the rear end when they refused to accept their daughter in there school because she was having daily accidents and the parents had done nothing at all to rectify the situation (the school referred the parents to social services). It turned out that it was a very small issue that was easily rectified. However both parents wanted to pander rather than help.

Lemonsyellow · 14/02/2021 15:13

All these posters saying it is not a disability then insisting the child should visit the GP because something is wrong?!?

But if something is wrong, that doesn’t mean it’s a disability. It’s true that many SENs are identified after the age of five, but that is irrelevant here - until/unless the child gets a diagnosis. If the parents/GPs suspect there is a possibility of SEN, that would be different path to go down. But as the child hasn’t seen a doctor, no one will know.

BunnyRuddington · 14/02/2021 15:13

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any posts, just trying to get an idea of what the position actually is with discrimination.

Ok so one person has said it's discrimination and almost every other poster has said it's not and that your DN needs assessing properly by a Doctor.

Even if it was discrimination, what would your DSis do about it? Take the CM to Court rather than getting DN the help she clearly needs?

You've also said that your DC were fairly easy to potty train so you know that soiling yourself everyday at 5 is unusual and that your DN needs help and therefore, you must understand that your DSis is being neglectful in not getting her that help.

The more you write OP, the more sorry I feel for your poor DN.

CherryRoulade · 14/02/2021 15:14

The answer is to ensure she is properly trained to use a lavatory,

ToastandJamandTea · 14/02/2021 15:14

@Greenmarmalade

I wouldn’t want to send her to that childminder as she wouldn’t be very sympathetic and kind when cleaning the 5 year old, so might make the problem worse and would certainly make the child feel bad.
Sounds like the cm is the only one who actually gives a fuck about the poor child! As a cm I can assure you that I and any other cm I know would be very sympathetic and kind to the child but we wouldn't be able to maintain this situation long term as it would negatively effect the other children we care for.
Pinkblueberry · 14/02/2021 15:14

Childminders can choose who they look after. They will have a policy that essentially spells that out. I don’t think a childminder should have to frequently change a 5 year old - I think that goes beyond the usual parameters of their job and refusing to want to do that is fair enough in my opinion.

katy1213 · 14/02/2021 15:15

Would you want to be the childminder dealing with that?

oblada · 14/02/2021 15:16

@ddl1

Faecal incontinence may be caused by a disability, but it is not a disability on its own: it's a possible symptom of one. If the child's parents think it might be due to a disability, that's even more reason to get medical attention.
Faecal incontinence can definitely be a disability. A disability doesn't have to be diagnosed. A disability is some form of impairment substantially and detrimental affecting one's daily life in the long-term. Soiling herself daily at an age where children are normally fully trained can definitely fall within that remit.
Gottalovesummer · 14/02/2021 15:16

I'll add my views as a childminder.

We care for several children at a time, including babies and toddlers. It can be very difficult to care for a child who soils themselves on a regular basis. It's not the same as changing nappies which is quick and relatively easy. This child will need washing down and clean clothes provided, her privacy and dignity need to be fully respected.

If the child had a medical condition or SEN then the cm would be aware of this in advance and could adjust her numbers and/or care of other children if necessary.

If I was in this position and one of my 5 year old mindees was pooing her pants daily I would be urging her parents to speak to their GP and yes, I would consider whether I could properly meet her needs and those of my other mindees in the meantime.

This poor child needs proper medical advice and help.

Hoppinggreen · 14/02/2021 15:16

If CM is SE she can choose who her clients are as long as she’s not discriminating on the grounds of a protected characteristic.

LadyMacbethWasMisunderstood · 14/02/2021 15:17

It is not discrimination. From what you say your DN does not have any of the protected characteristics under the equality act.

People - on here and elsewhere - are quick to cite “discrimination” when what they are really referring to is “choice”. Your DN’s childminder has the freedom to choose not to deal with the faeces of a 5 year old if she wishes. That is her choice. And she is absolutely permitted to make it.

I can’t imagine your DN would be happy attending a place where she was unwelcome in any event.

It is a difficult situation for your SIL. I can see that.

JustLyra · 14/02/2021 15:17

Would it also be like a school saying we don't want to put ramps in so we won't take a child in a wheelchair. Or we don't want to train up our teachers so we won't take dyslexic pupils. Or a GP saying 'I don't speak Urdu so I am not prepared to have you as a patient'? Do you think those examples are not discriminatory either?

Schools and a childminder are not remotely comparable.

LA's have a legal duty to ensure children have access to an education.

oblada · 14/02/2021 15:17

'Detrimentally'

Thinking about it even this 'laziness' argument can fall into it - it can be some mental health issue.
Definitely not normal and quite possibly a disability.

Therunecaster · 14/02/2021 15:19

@chestnutSquash

Apart from any other consideration this poor child is probably uncomfortable, embarrassed, probably in pain. Her mother should be making every effort to sort out what is probably a dietary problem or impaction with overflow. It isn't the child minder's job to do this. She is probably trying to get the mother to get medical advice.
This exactly. My son had this (mega colon) we got it sorted.
JustLyra · 14/02/2021 15:19

All the whataboutery about the CM is diverting from the actual issue.

The child is being neglected by their parents, by the fact that they haven't bothered to seek proper medical help.

The OP is facilitating this neglect by focussing on the CM.

FFS @minniemango put your focus where it actually needs to be and get your brother and SIL to stop neglecting their child.

MotherForker · 14/02/2021 15:19

My dd had poo accidents frequently in reception and year 1. I can't remember what age they stopped. Dd was diagnosed as autistic at age 6 or 7. It isn't uncommon for ASD children, as it is often a sensory issue. It actually isn't that uncommon for non-SEND children, but it is rarely laziness.

We found the GP useless, reward charts don't help (because it usually isn't a conscious choice.) We read a lot of stuff by ERIC charity and we're patient with her. She attended after school on site childcare and they dealt with it like school. Which was they supervised her cleaning herself, gave her clean knickers and put the messed ones in. A bag.

Cadent · 14/02/2021 15:19

she has been a nightmare with poos. She does have either full poo accidents or dirty pants most days and the childminder had expressed before lockdown that she didn't want to deal with changing DN every day.

Why would you wish this on the poor CM?!

It’s ok for you, you’re 200 miles away!

AvocadosBeforeMortgages · 14/02/2021 15:20

@OverTheRainbow88

It’s illegal as is discriminating
Discrimination is only illegal if it's done on the basis of a protected characteristic - race, sex, gender reassignment, age, disability, religion and so on.

Being potty trained is not a protected characteristic.