Childminder kicking out child for not being potty trained is she BU?

[minniemango]

My niece is currently not able to attend her childminder as SIL isn't a keyworker. SIL has contacted childminder about care resuming from March 8th and been told she will only have DN back if SIL can guarantee she will have no accidents.
Is the childminder being unreasonable, is this even allowed?
DN is 5 and in Reception, no SEN.

DN has already been attending for several years so the childminder is actively refusing to care for her anymore. Does this make a difference?

No. Only that she’s been putting up with this shit for far too long whilst your sister hasn’t done anything to help her daughter. Shameful.

Sorry just read everything and the child needs to be taken to the drs......

Child need medical assessment. My DS is 7. Like your niece he soils himself daily throughout the day.

He used to be constipated when younger, and would ‘withhold’ poo and had impaction and overflow at times.

He did this for so long that as a result his bowel has now become ‘baggy’ and can hold a large amount of poo, which gets pushed out bit by bit throughout the day (so it’s might seem like he’s not constipated).

Because his bowel is so large, his brain is not getting the early signals that his bowel is starting to fill, he doesn’t feel the pressure and the urges to fully empty his bowel. He only knows he needs to poo when he is literally pooing.

He is now on a lengthy medical journey to correct the problem. It involves laxatives and other medication to stimulate and shrink the bowel to a normal size and it takes on average 2-3 YEARS.

My DS also has other SEN and this is just part of his journey.

Your niece needs to get the help she needs ASAP because the longe ethos goes on the longer and harder it will be to fix. And with the best will in the world, her classmates WILL notice.

The child minder would probably have taken your DN back if her parents were actively trying to resolve the problem.

Depends what you mean by accidents. Very occasionally acceptable at this age if a child doesn't have special needs. Frequently no I agree with the childminder.

@OverTheRainbow88

It’s illegal as is discriminating

Do you think toilet training is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act?

It isn't

If this is occurring frequently, the child needs a medical check-up. 5-year-olds do have occasional accidents; but pooing your pants every day at this age suggests either some sort of digestive problem or some sort of emotional problem.

@minniemango

I understand that the childminder can take on or not take on any child she wants without even giving a reason, but in this case DN has already been attending for several years so the childminder is actively refusing to care for her anymore. Does this make a difference?

No.

You have to consider if it's normal for a 5yo to be happy to soil frequently?

It's so odd she'll just happily do it and can control that she's doing it.

Whether accident or deliberate this seriously needs addressing as both are concerning.

And of course a CM can shows who she minds.

Have to say, this is definitely something that needs proper medical investigation. At 3 you expect occasional accidents. A 5 year old (no SEN/ Medical needs) usually has control. They may have the occasional poop accident - unwell, constipation, etc but not a common occurrence. The frequency of these incidents suggests something more - physical medical needs ( IBS, constipation, bowel issues etc) or mental/ emotional needs related to the toilet. Some children can get very toilet anxious and their anxiety leads to soiling issues- these need to be addressed and worked through, it's not laziness. If it is a physical medical issue the child is likely to be in pain and discomfort and again should not be ignored. As an adult you would not ignore soiling yourself frequently, it's not fair on a child.

Not to mention the fact she is 5, the embarrassment and social consequences are really not fair on the child. I've worked with 5 year olds for many years, they notice things like this, they are not known for tact and can be very blunt/ to the point - so and so smells, so and so poos herself, so and so needs a nappy etc are all out of the mouths of babes but very hurtful for the child it concerns. This really needs sorting and properly investigated.

It’s not illegal or discrimination. The child has no SEN and a childminder is free too terminate a contract whenever they want. The reality is your niece has additional toileting needs well over and above what is normal for her age and the childminder cannot meet those care needs anymore or does not feel able too anymore. It’s also very likely impacting on her ability too care for other children too if she is having too spend a significant amount of time daily cleaning and changing a 5 year old.

I would be much more concerned that there is an underlying reason why she is still pooping herself daily at 5. Your niece needs seen by a doctor asap.

I'm a childminder and I would find this very difficult to deal with. It's not nice for the child or the childminder. If it were me, I would suggest that I would be happy to have the child back as long as the issue was being dealt with and ask what they were doing to address it. So, no, the CM is not being unreasonable.

This is really not normal and the Health Visitor should be contacted. My 3 year old doesn’t have poo accidents. DN’s parents might not be telling you the full picture here.

@Dannydevitoiloveyourart

SIL has a friend who is a GP who said there's nothing physically wrong it's just laziness.

The only laziness is your SIL not taking it seriously and getting her child to the actual GP for a professional opinion. Unless the friend is a paediatrician, specialising in bowel movement - and she conducted a full examination with the appropriate tests - her opinion is just pure conjecture.

I agree with that! Seems bonkers to suggest a 5yr old is just being lazy. There is an issue surely. For CM - either the child has an issue (can incl mental health) constituting a disability (possible really here) in which case it could be discriminatory unless she can show that she cannot make the appropriate reasonable adjustments etc. Or the child is absolutely fine but "lazy' in which case CM can refuse her.

🙄

I don’t think childminders are under any obligation to take any children, providing it’s within the terms of the contract (eg giving adequate notice).

I really feel for the poor child though; my DD has struggled with constipation/withholding and it’s been tough. I just don’t accept the idea that she’s “just lazy”. I suggest your SIL speaks to the GP and seeks support. We’ve been referred to the paediatric continence service, and ERIC has loads of resources too. I would make this a priority as it’s going to affect her confidence and wellbeing in any childcare/school setting if she’s soiling daily aged 5.

How awful that this poor child isn’t having her needs met by her mother who only seems to care about the inconvenience of not being able to use the childminder.

Absolutely disgraceful that your sister isn’t doing more to investigate the underlying cause.

She does have either full poo accidents or dirty pants most days

She’s not toilet trained then if she’s having accidents everyday.

Would just echo everything pp have said - focus on getting your sis to take her dd to get the help she needs rather than trying to find ways to make the cm take her.

Just to add, changing and cleaning a 5 year old who has soiled themselves takes up considerably more time than changing a nappy/pull up on a younger child.
I hope your niece gets seen by a medical professional very soon.

5 with no SEN?!?!?

Your sister and the child father are a disgrace.
They are doing their child no favours.

Difference between wetting yourself and not being toilet trained. If a 5yo NT is persistently wetting themselves there’s an issue that needs to be addressed.

If the minder had a blanket policy that she would take NO child who wasn't toilet trained, that would be discriminatory as some children due to SEN are not able to achieve toilet training.

This isn't the same situation. From the sound of it, the CM has done all she can for as long as she can and has reached the point of not being able to cope with this any more. It may even be that she is hoping this gets the parents to realise they must seek proper medical care and advice for the child. It sounds like encopresis, as pps have said, it's not uncommon and distressing and difficult for children, and school will not be able to just take the poor child having accidents on a daily basis with all the time and staffing and issues of cleaning her up. Poo accidents in pants are harder to manage than a toddler in nappies. School will need to know and work with medical support and programmes in place to help and manage it, or they will not be able to cope with it either.

No you can’t ‘force’ the childminder to look after her, and no it isn’t discrimination.

But more to the point there is a real problem here - this is not normal at 5, and it will lead to bullying very shortly. You sister needs to get some help now, be that physical or physiological - the GP may be right it’s not physical but they can’t tell by looking so personally I would insist on a referral to gastro to double check, whilst also getting behavioural support.

Hopefully you sister and her partner can afford to pay to speed the process up. This does not reflect well on them and is neglectful of their daughter. It’s also very inconsiderate of their childminder.

It is illegal to discriminate on the basis of disability. Disability could be purely continence issues - there does not need to be any other SEN. However many SEN do not become apparent until a child grows up as the issues they struggle with may be issues eg toddlers struggle with so it is only when they grown past toddlerhood that the delay is observed. As such discriminating against a child for lack of toilet training is illegal.