Childminder kicking out child for not being potty trained is she BU?

[minniemango]

My niece is currently not able to attend her childminder as SIL isn't a keyworker. SIL has contacted childminder about care resuming from March 8th and been told she will only have DN back if SIL can guarantee she will have no accidents.
Is the childminder being unreasonable, is this even allowed?
DN is 5 and in Reception, no SEN.

Both my dc have a health problem that resulted in chronic constipation and associated poo smearing accidents. Luckily both their school and childminder were fully supportive!

But you were presumably doing something to deal with the issue, no? You took your children to health professionals to have them assessed/diagnosed based on their symptoms and the other professionals who were part of their care supported that.

I am sure the CM would be supportive if the parents were doing anything about it but they are not so the two situations are not remotely similar or comparable.

The OPs DSis doesnt seem to have consulted any professional help beyond a chat with a Dr friend two years ago (at an age when accidents are "normal" for the developmental stage).

Absolutely @JustLyra it was shit for us and although I was angry I appreciated her honesty. I totally got it because I deal with it 24/7 and I'm not sure I would want to do it for someone elses child. Most days I worry whether I can carry on for my own child! I'm just pointing out that even if discrimination technically is an issue or could be proven, there's probably not much that can be done, that you would want to put yourself or your child through. The best thing is to find them somewhere else and get them settled asap.

Apologies, I've clearly missed some info in my scan of the thread. I will read more carefully in future.

I read a few posts about there not being an excuse for school age dc to have accidents and it being poor parenting and felt a bit attacked. Yes, obviously in our case we had a diagnosis and were seeking help.

Your sister literally needs to sort her shit out with your niece. There’s not many childminder who’ll be up for dealing with this from a 5yo.

Considering the size of the spare clothes and pants stash in my daughter's reception classroom I think it's normal to have the occasional accident at age 5. In fact it happened to my daughter once or twice and the teachers couldn't have been less bothered, they acted like it was a daily occurrence and they had to deal with it all the time.

I suppose it depends on the rate of accidents your niece is having and how well she can tidy it up herself. Perhaps the childminder is uncomfortable helping kids to wipe after a certain age, although it does seem a bit mean to me.

It wasn't that long ago that my children couldn't attend pre-school unless they were toilet trained, so that would have been the school year in which they turned three. Two were reliably dry and able to take themselves to the loo by the September, one of them wasn't so we waited.

Childminders can choose what they can and can't do. It's not a protected characteristic but toilet training does seem to take place much later these days. One of my children was extremely car sick, you couldn't get him 200 metres down the road without vomiting so on the days she chose to take her mindees out on a trip I had to take annual leave and stay home with him. Her perogative - not that I always liked it but I wouldn't question it.

My daughter had 2 years of medical treatment for this (encopresis). Takes commitment from all involved. This thread makes me sad.

@CottonSock

My daughter had 2 years of medical treatment for this (encopresis). Takes commitment from all involved. This thread makes me sad.

Sad because the parents aren't recognising there's an issue?

No way in the world would I want to send my child to a care setting where I’ve been told they are not wanted. Therefore, the question of whether the CM is discriminating or not would be entirely irrelevant. Your sister needs to make a GP appointment ASAP and look for an alternative setting in the meantime.

Again, a school setting is slightly different. Ideally there would be another adult there to supervise the other children while you help the child clean themselves up and them clean up any mess if there is any.

More often than not, a CM would have to leave other children unsupervised while dealing with it and ensuring the child also gets privacy.

Accidents aren't uncommon, even for much older children. Working in a school I've dealt with plenty at various ages. But they're accidents or an ongoing health issue that we are made aware of(and can make adaptations for)and steps are being taken by parents to ameliorate the situation.

It does rather sound as if this poor child's parents will not bother to invest the time and comittment to treat her condition. According to ERIC it takes at least a couple of years to retrain the bowel, probably more, given that it has been left so long.

It’s very uncomfortable for a child minder to have to deal with assisting a child this age with a private intimate thing such as helping to clean up and change underwear and on a daily basis. Plus if you’ve been in this position yourself with a five year old child who ‘has accidents’ all day long (1’s and 2’s ) I can tell you it is so unsavoury - the smell of a human poo to clean up squashed up and all around their bottom is enough to make you gag. The smell which would be lingering around your home and up your own nostrils. You think well I did it for my baby can’t be that bad, well there’s a) a difference when it’s not your own child, and b) huge difference in size and smell of a five year olds whatits than a baby. No I don’t blame the childminder for refusing.

My daughter was fully trained for wees at just turned 3. She pood her pants almost daily for another 6 months and then had leaks until she was about 6. It turned out she had a good intolerance and that was the cause. It's worth looking into.

I'd be far more worried about why the mother isn't getting help and advice about this from medical professionals. To be doing this at 5 is worrying. If I was a childminder I wouldn't have her either. Poor little girl

@AaronPurr. Yes, sad that a chronic condition has not been treated or probably recognised by the parents. It's likely that the kid is sitting in soiled underwear often, smells etc. My daughter did sometimes smell and it took almost a year for her first appointment. We were not given any treatment from the gp whilst we waited. The parents may be unaware it's not normal, as I was when it first happened. Op please suggest Eric, poo nurses video, and movicol mummies on Facebook. They are no longer unaware if you show them this.

@bowchicawowwow

It wasn't that long ago that my children couldn't attend pre-school unless they were toilet trained, so that would have been the school year in which they turned three. Two were reliably dry and able to take themselves to the loo by the September, one of them wasn't so we waited.

Childminders can choose what they can and can't do. It's not a protected characteristic but toilet training does seem to take place much later these days. One of my children was extremely car sick, you couldn't get him 200 metres down the road without vomiting so on the days she chose to take her mindees out on a trip I had to take annual leave and stay home with him. Her perogative - not that I always liked it but I wouldn't question it.

But the reason that schools and preschools can’t now refuse is because it is considered discrimination. SEN is often not diagnosed before 5 so refusal due to developmental delay in any area can be considered as discrimination.

It might be difficult for childminders and different in that they do need to be able to say they can’t deal with it as they are different to some settings. Unless there is something else going on I suspect this is don’t want to rather than can’t though. I’d find a better childminder.

[quote CottonSock]@AaronPurr. Yes, sad that a chronic condition has not been treated or probably recognised by the parents. It's likely that the kid is sitting in soiled underwear often, smells etc. My daughter did sometimes smell and it took almost a year for her first appointment. We were not given any treatment from the gp whilst we waited. The parents may be unaware it's not normal, as I was when it first happened. Op please suggest Eric, poo nurses video, and movicol mummies on Facebook. They are no longer unaware if you show them this.[/quote]
The main thing is you tried to get help. i'm sorry that the GP didn't provide treatment, but you were persistant and didn't just put the problem down to laziness.

The child's parents in this situation must know it's unusual at age 5. They were already questioning the accidents a couple of years ago, hence the health visitor and GP friends comments. It's now a few more years down the line and the childminder has clearly had more than one chat with them about this, and it's an ongoing issue.

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay she dealt with it for two years and there is no end in sight. Whether she can't or won't deal with it anymore, who can blame her?

You are talking nonsense. How do you think the childminder is keeping the other children safe while cleaning up this child every day. There could be 3 under 5's, another 2 under 8's and more older children at home at the moment, in addition to the dn?
It's just not possible to do this long term, especially with additional safety measures in place with covid. The EYFS is clear in that over 5's are only permitted in a cm setting if they do not negatively impact on the care and education of under 5's.
The cm is doing everything right.

I just can't understand why people are not potty training their children anymore. Or teaching them to read or doing anything at all with them. My son was fully potty trained at three, it was bloody hard work but we did it. I don't think people want to put the work in, they just assume they will train themselves eventually.

Your dn does have special needs. She is soiling herself regularly aged 5 which is not normal and it is unwise to gamble on it getting better on its own.

By this age most children don't soil and will have internalised the huge social taboo around poo (I hate the "lazy" excuse - it is something more when a child exposes themselves to the potential discomfort, ridicule and censure of sitting in their own faeces.)

Eric is a good start. It may be a long road and your sister is unlikely to get a lot of sympathy. GPs may fob off and specialist services often can't find anything obvious.

She may simply be witholding and putting off going until it's too late, but that can become a seriously ingrained habit that's very hard to shift and can in itself lead to bowel stretching and leakage.

It's actually pretty common but little spoken about (partly to do with the shame of having a school age child who soils which many will blame on parenting). Been there twice. Both now resolved but it took hard work and it was awful to go through.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

I just can't understand why people are not potty training their children anymore. Or teaching them to read or doing anything at all with them. My son was fully potty trained at three, it was bloody hard work but we did it. I don't think people want to put the work in, they just assume they will train themselves eventually.

What exactly on this thread gave you the impression that people don't potty train their children anymore?

Even the child in the OP is potty trained. She just has undetermined issues when it comes to having a poo. There could be several things at play here, none of them dependant on whether a child is potty trained or not.

That's where her parents failed. Investigating those issues.

It’s not discrimination.

Pooing your pants is not a protected characteristic.

This is my son. We have been having medical appointments for the last 18 months. We've been referred to paediatrics, allergy clinic, psychology and he's having an autism assessment. It isn't normal to be soiling at this age and it indicates there is an underlying problem. It could be all sorts of things but it needs to be dealt with urgently, wait lists are long so it could be another year before your DN gets seen if it's like my area.

@minniemango

DN has been potty trained since she was 3 and is dry, but she has been a nightmare with poos. She does have either full poo accidents or dirty pants most days and the childminder had expressed before lockdown that she didn't want to deal with changing DN every day.

I really dont think she's unreasonable to refuse to deal with this at all.