Punishing the wrong person aibu

[Createsuser]

So this is for a friend but it’s lockdown and there’s not much else to do.

DF has two DC’s A- sensible, mature and B- impulsive funny and cheeky. She comes from quite a traditional family who are fairly strict. During a recent family Zoom call with the grandparents B made some off colour jokes then when the grandfather gave her a firm telling off hung up on him. The grandfather has now issued some punishments (don’t want to say what as it would be outing) to A and B. A wasn’t involved and told B off for being a fool and said she should have known the grandparents would be upset. So in essence A is now being punished for B’s behaviour which he didn’t agree with. The grandparents won’t listen to A’s side of the story. WWYD and Aibu to think this is unfair?

This thread perfectly illustrates why teaching is such a minefield.
"Hello parent, just letting you know x said y today to their teacher and this is the sanction. "
"Oh, they were just having a laugh/ being cheeky/ expressive/ joking/sassy/feisty."

Half the posters deciding that the gf is some authoritarian monster and the other half aware that some kids are rude, if allowed to be.

Omg stone walling a 11 year old for being abit of a cheeky twat.

Tbh the grandparents sound toxic.

I think there is bad behaviour on both sides here. If the child has previously been indulged and encouraged to be the chirpy, cheeky one then it would have been better for the grandparent to point out that she has overstepped and tell her to stop. Going nuclear and having a strop should have been held back, I would say an adult should never have a shouty strop at a child but if it's going to happen then at least it should be a last resort after repeated behaviours that more rational management hadn't managed to stop.

This thread has got my blood boiling actually.

It has reminded me about an incident a few years ago. We asked PIL to babysit for us for an important, longstanding commitment. My best friend was getting married. We asked them because they live locally. They agreed and confirmed a number of times. 2 days before the date my MIL threw a power trip and said she wasn't sure if she wanted to do it anymore. It wasn't convenient. I foresaw this coming and told DH that if she did this, to say "OK, thanks anyway". I already had a backup plan.

My dad had agreed to come over, from hundreds of miles away to do it for me. When they heard this MIL was absolutely mortified and FIL got on the phone to us to backtrack and put it right. In the end, I reluctantly agreed because my dad is no spring chicken and it would have been a long trip for him.

I have never asked them to do a single thing for us since.

@BlackAmericanoNoSugar

I think there is bad behaviour on both sides here. If the child has previously been indulged and encouraged to be the chirpy, cheeky one then it would have been better for the grandparent to point out that she has overstepped and tell her to stop. Going nuclear and having a strop should have been held back, I would say an adult should never have a shouty strop at a child but if it's going to happen then at least it should be a last resort after repeated behaviours that more rational management hadn't managed to stop.

The problem is that this is a (maybe) thirdhand account of what happened.

We effectively know nothing except through the bias of the DF and the OP

gifts with strings aren't actually gifts but power plays, and should always be politely refused/ returned.

In future the parent has the prerogative to turn down any gifts.

Sorry, that posted too soon.

On the child's side there is fault, but children misjudge social situations and then they learn to make better choices next time. She has apologised and will presumably do better in future.

As a parent I would stop accepting conditional gifts on behalf of my children. I expect the grandparents will come out of their strop and want contact with their grandchildren again and at that stage I would tell them that it would probably be better if there are no on-going gifts than can be stopped abruptly (like riding lessons or whatever). I would say that there is no expectation of gifts of any sort as just being in contact with their grandparents is nice enough for the DC, but cancellable gifts will not be used as it's better for the DC not to get used to the gift at all than to use it and then miss it when it's gone.

Cheeky or a rude madam?

Are the parents a bit dim that they would sit through 3 jokes?

Sounds like the parenting is very poor and she indeed could be a cheeky madam.

The GF's upset is his business as is his decision with his money.

However, your friend should spell out her apology and the apology of her child but make it clear the victimisation of A will not be tolerated and she should tell him contact us when you wish to be reasonable.

She should take some time to look at her parenting.

Allowing your child to tell 3 insulting jokes is very poor and she should be ashamed of herself.

GF sounds a bit wrapped up in himself but ultimately if he wants to punish a rude child with withdrawal of a treat, it is his choice.

He doesn't get to punish an innocent child without consequences.

Considering he's all about consequences, this should be made crystal clear to him.

Has your friend asked grandfather why he is punishing A for something that B did? It would be helpful to understand his thinking with the punishment and why he's including A in it.

My dad had agreed to come over, from hundreds of miles away to do it for me. When they heard this MIL was absolutely mortified and FIL got on the phone to us to backtrack and put it right. In the end, I reluctantly agreed because my dad is no spring chicken

Major backstory potential here.

gifts with strings aren't actually gifts but power plays, and should always be politely refused/ returned. Giving a gift in order to have the power to punish or hurrt by taking it back is far more underhand and unpleasant than never giving gifts. Accepting that kind of gift from that kind of person on behalf of your children is frankly stupid.

I agree. I don’t accept cash gifts from my mum as they are remembered for ever.

My dad had agreed to come over, from hundreds of miles away to do it for me. When they heard this MIL was absolutely mortified and FIL got on the phone to us to backtrack and put it right. In the end, I reluctantly agreed because my dad is no spring chicken and it would have been a long trip for him.

Sounds like they wanted you to beg so they could feel magnanimous but it backfired!

Do they often pull this shit?

So 11 year old children can’t make mistakes? And when they do, and they apologise, that’s not good enough? confused

A couple of very important things to learn about apologies:

• even if you mean them, the other person is under no obligation to accept them
• even if you mean them, it doesn’t always cancel out the consequence

So she has to apologize for singing songs that are popular for her generation, because her grandfather's ego must be appeased at all times.

There are some weird attitudes on this thread.
In no particular order:
Grandparents are providing something that we don't know about but I'll take a punt that it is something the parents either can't afford or it would strain the budget. Grandparents are perfectly within their rights to expect that their grandchildren are at least not rude to them (and the grandparents are within their rights to be old fashioned about what they consider rude. The kids are 13 and 11 and presumably this isn't new for them)

11 is well old enough to know how bullying and rude behaviour works. For example standing next to a fat person and singing songs about fat people without naming names, pointing or looking at them is still targetted rudeness. I wouldn't put up with that from anyone. Plausible deniability is a concept that many kids understand even though they don't understand what it's called.

13 year old seems to have taken it on board that it was rude and seems to realise how seriously the GF takes it.

Also the apology, how do we know it wasn't one of those hideous "sorry you were offended" non-apologies?

So, frankly, since we don't know any of the details it's pretty much an exercise in ridiculousness.

It’s for your friend to contact her father to resolve.

‘Hi dad, I want to apologise again for B’s comments, they are making you a apology card and will be sending a nice bar of chocolate from their pocket money. I thoroughly support your decision to withhold (ballet?) and have explained to B that actions have consequences. However, I’m confused as to why you have also tarred A with the same brush? They were no more involved than DH or I therefore I will be paying for A to do (ballet?) as it is unfair for them to miss out on something because of their sibling’s behaviour. Hope you’re ok, catch up soon x’

Sounds as if the Grandad feels he has been disrespected by this family and has withdrawn whatever he was providing. I can see his point.

@FrippEnos

MichelleScarn SnuggyBuggy

Is A also the butt of Bs jokes?

Also wondering this, A probably sick of the 'B is just wonderful with their cheeky fun humour'. Is all their humour at someone else's expense?

I suspect that there is a huge grain of truth about this.

Interesting if this is accurate.

A may be accustomed to being told that B is just being funny or charming because the parents don't see it as bullying.

It might be a little validating for A to learn that others perceive B to be unpleasant.

Sounds to me like the grandparents need to get over it. The child apologised, it wasnt meant cruelly and wasnt the fault of A at all.

Sounds like their pride has taken a hit and they're damaging a relationship with both grandchildren by not accepting an apology and moving on from the incident, even if they felt humiliated if the apology was heartfelt them I can't imagine denying the non involved child at all. Not backing down on removing the punishment for A also smacks if pride issues.

Without knowing what's been taken away it's hard to judge whether the punishment was fair, but it certainly isn't fair to punish a child not involved in the crime.

I assume that Grandfather expected A to tell his sister to pack it in, not allowing for the shock factor involved.

I think grandfather is being completely over the top and cutting off these 2 GC at this time is an immensely risky move.

However, if B has form for being insensitive and rude, then it probably serves her right - but it isn't fair for A to be tarred with the same brush.

Hopefully they will calm down about it but I don't honestly see what A or B can do now to make amends, if B has apologised (properly!) and it's not being accepted. Just have to suck it up and learn that
a) actions have consequences
b) some people can be easily offended if you're not careful
c) life isn't fair.

Not a great situation :(

I'm derailing the thread sorry.

Do they often pull this shit?

This is why this thread got my back up. FIL and my dad are fine but MIL used to be awful. She regularly uses emotional blackmail and threats of NC and gifts were withdrawn with her DC to get her own way. I know exactly how her mind works. She did it as a power trip. She probably thought she had the power to wreck my friendship with my best friend of 25 years and she exercised it. Luckily I am onto her. I had a backup plan because she gave a few smirks when we mentioned the babysitting a few times. I didn't want to ask her in the first place.

She doesn't do it to us anymore as she knows I don't react the way she wants me to. I take nothing off her and I owe her nothing. I surrounded myself with good friends and I ask them if I need help. She used to use money as a threat but that is funny because she hasn't got any. We are much better off. The power has shifted quite a lot in the relationship. She has nothing I want, but I have her 3 DGC. When she kicks off I just make ourselves busy for 6 months.

Sorry to sidetrack the thread.

It’s so common (unfortunately) for parents to think their child’s rudeness is “spirit”. Spirit isn’t not saying thank you for birthday presents or mocking people for their appearances or being surly when someone is being kind to you. It’s just bad manners.

astudy .. we still have no clue what the girl actually said. I fully appreciate your comments on apology etc, however I think everyone is forgetting this is an 11 year old child. Child. Who does not have the foresight, thinking, maturity, etc of an adult. We as adults still make mistakes, yet we expect an 11 year old child to be perfect?

There is a lot of poor parenting. Who let's an 11yr on to go on reddit? Unless I missedunderstood the sea shanty reddit comment.

B was rude 3 times about the Gf Nose and the parents didn't take the cue to tell if the child they consider checky. If people go quiet, that's not checky, it's being rude.

I don't think gf was throwing his weight about as head of the family. Everyone deserves respect. If it's not there you teach it. I will make a quess that the grandfather didng shoug buy told B off. For the first time, someone was actually descplinning her. How dare they? She disconnects the zoom.

The gift is probably shared. That's why A is also being punished. If it's not, there is a reason why A is ok with it. Based on the first comment about B's behaviour, it won't surprise me if eveveryone has had enough of it. It's the parents who just do not get it. Puting the blame on the gf parents but themselves for encouraging poor behaviour.

astudy .. we still have no clue what the girl actually said. I fully appreciate your comments on apology etc, however I think everyone is forgetting this is an 11 year old child. Child. Who does not have the foresight, thinking, maturity, etc of an adult. We as adults still make mistakes, yet we expect an 11 year old child to be perfect?*

I honestly don’t expect perfection. But when the mistake is made, we have to treat it as what it is, not make excuses, or it will be made again.

It's horribly unfair to punish child A for something they haven't done.

I do wonder though if this is a culmination of the GF not approving of the OPs friends' parenting.

For the parents to sit in 'collective silence' while the dd says the same joke 3 times would suggest that they don't generally intervene when her 'cheeky humour' is inappropriate. I can see how the GF would feel upset if he felt he was the but of a joke and the parents weren't saying anything.

That the dd terminated the family zoom chat because she'd been given a 'firm telling off' is even more telling.

I don't agree with what the GF has done, but I do suspect there might be a bit more of a backstory.