Punishing the wrong person aibu

[Createsuser]

So this is for a friend but it’s lockdown and there’s not much else to do.

DF has two DC’s A- sensible, mature and B- impulsive funny and cheeky. She comes from quite a traditional family who are fairly strict. During a recent family Zoom call with the grandparents B made some off colour jokes then when the grandfather gave her a firm telling off hung up on him. The grandfather has now issued some punishments (don’t want to say what as it would be outing) to A and B. A wasn’t involved and told B off for being a fool and said she should have known the grandparents would be upset. So in essence A is now being punished for B’s behaviour which he didn’t agree with. The grandparents won’t listen to A’s side of the story. WWYD and Aibu to think this is unfair?

The grandfather is wrong to punish both children, in my opinion.

But, I wonder if B is actually a bit more than “cheeky”. Most children I know to whom that description is attached are actually rude, often over-indulged and a few downright unpleasant. But their parents can’t see it- they are “cheeky”, “spirited” etc. If unchecked, I think some of these children will be those “tell it like it is”, “just saying!” people who are actually mostly rude, conceited and unable to see they might not be correct in any given situation. But assume their “humour” and “honesty/ forthrightness” allow them to say anything they like without consequence.

Perhaps your friend needs to think about what the situation actually is: 1)grandfather completely over-reacted to something which wasn’t rude at all; 2) whether he was rightly insulted by something but over-reacted;3) B was rude and withdrawal if treat for her would be fair enough (but unfair to A); 4) whether this is a reaction to a more sustained pattern of behaviour from B, which he’s had enough of? Still not right to punish A.

I think the fact that the child’s parents sat “ opened mouthed” (so presumably realised this was rude?) and let her do it 3 times before she was told off by her grandfather leads me to think it is 2,3 or 4.

I’m also not of the opinion that withdrawing a treat for bad behaviour is “strings attached”. It’s consequence for bad behaviour. If my DC’s are rude, I might withdraw a treat or fine some pocket money etc. I would be fine with a grandparent or aunt withdrawing a treat if one of the DC has been rude to them. Treats are not “unconditional” and can be removed where behaviour does not warrant it. It’s not controlling or unfair. It’s action = consequence. Though should be proportional to degree of transgression.

I don’t think this is school fees or something of that magnitude from OP’s description that the parents will do something similar, but smaller, for A.

I’m having fun picturing why it would be outing.

Grandad is Prince Philip and some younger royals joked about a paedo uncle and he took umbrage on behalf of Andrew and is cutting them off the civil list?

It's hard to make a judgement without knowing exactly what the jokes were. But If it was bad enough to be truly insulting why hasn't the mother stopped the child after the first time? If it went on for a while?

Regardless, GF sounds like a prick. It's a child, they apologized. He's not the head of the family he's obviously an old grumpy man throwing a tantrum.

I had a grandparent like that and my mum would just let them shout at me/be mean. Now I don't speak to either one of them very often because adults seem to not realise they can make their parenting choices but grown up children can make their own choices too.

I'd ignore the GF until he apologizes for shouting at the child.

Meh. 'Cheeky' is like 'spirited' They are code words to try and spin something unpleasant into something a little more palatable.

We're not going to get the real story. Cheeky kid's behaviour is completely minimised, Grandfathers demonised. My money is on this being just another incident where the 'cheeky' child has been rude and unpleasant

I'd actually make it crystal clear to grandfather that he's setting a shitty example to his grandchildren.

Sledgehammer to crack a nut and all that.

He's showing how to grossly overreact to a child's mistake.
He's showing he can't accept an apology from a child.
He's showing he'll punish everyone for one person's mistake and not admit he's made his own mistake in that regard.
He'll sulk for being called out for it.

Nice.

I'd lay that out for him.
How is a child supposed to come back from that if the adult is determined to act like a child himself. Especially a child who is clearly struggling under the current conditions.

Is B really cheeky? I think we need examples of this. To some people a girl having an opinion is considered cheeky and the GF does sound domineering and patriarchal.

Children should be taught not to be rude but also I hate adults who can't be grown up enough to realise that children are impulsive & speak without thinking sometimes and that isn't a reflection on them, some adults do seem to hold grudges.

My DM went on for years about how I laughed at her when she had a hair cut I have no idea why I laughed I was 9/10 years old, I do remember saying sorry but I'm 40 now she hasn't bought it up for a few years but my goodness how fragile that a silly comment from a child has stayed around this long.

My own children at times have been rude or said something without thinking, depending on the level of what they did they are either spoken to or privileges removed but never would I hold a grudge.

^Grandad is Prince Philip and some younger royals joked about a paedo uncle and he took umbrage on behalf of Andrew and is cutting them off the civil list?* I think you might have cracked it!

The whole set up sounds toxic. How can DGF possibly dictate your nuclear family’s life from behind a screen?

Fuck them. Let them be annoyed, that's their right.
But also if the kids have apologised then they have done enough, don't go grovelling.
I gave up on difficult family members a long time ago. Let them sulk and not be a part of their grandkids lives if that's what they want. Fuckin petty

bloody hell, I'm glad my grandparents arent so self absorbed. my little sisters (10 and 8) can say some ridiculous things which they find funny. I went through a stage of having really bad skin and the 10 year old said some things that was a bit hurtful. I got over myself, told her it wasnt a nice thing to say and to not say it again to me or anyone else and that was that. I didnt scream and refuse to talk to her.

sounds like a really over the top reaction to something an 11 year old made a joke about.

The thing about sea shanties and yachts was an example / comparison, not what actually happened

I wonder if B will grow up to be one of those awful people who says "I tell it like it is, people like me or hate me". I have s friend who thinks her daughter is a cute, cheeky one, and I think she's just arrogant and rude

Otherwise I can't understand granddad's rationale in taking whatever it is away from him too, especially if he's known to be sensible and mature.

I think this is supposed to be part of the consequences for B - punishing both and hoping that A will be angry at B and B will be upset. Horrible, especially when A is probably a very important part of B's life at the moment, when they can't see their friends.

An adult who can't accept an apology from an 11 year old is not the kind of person I'd want my children to have much to do with.

FossilisedFanny
@WeatherwaxOn I think the Op said the child was singing sea shanties and the gf got upset because he had crashed his yacht some time before.
In which case gf is being utterly ridiculous and childish.

But the OP did not say that. She was trying to give an example of something similar to the offensive remark.

In her first posts she says child B was making off-colour jokes. That sounds very different from singing sea shanties. She is now minimising the child’s remarks to make the GF look worse.

GF sounds ridiculous.

Your friend should probably limit contact for now and do their best to make it up to both children. Life is tough enough at the moment without supposed adults behaving like three year olds.

Bloody tyrant. I wouldn't try to engage or apologise.

Well of course it's not fair. My sister got caught shoplifting at 14. I was at work but should they gave come and punished me too just because we're related.

Have

Whatever it is this is a sick example of an older man telling a young girl what she can and cannot do as he provides the money (I am guessing ) . Do as I want or you get excluded . It makes me heave !

If this had happened to my cheeky 11-year old they would right now be feeling really confused and upset. They said something inappropriate and they are sorry. Don't forget there is no such thing as a bad child, just shit parenting.

My son would be very upset and disorientated that GP had punished him, his sibling, and his family and that his actions had serious consequences financially. I wouldn't let my DC's GP treat them like that and get away with it. I would show my son that he made a mistake but that he was being overly punished and that GF was in the wrong. I wouldn't let that lie.

[quote FossilisedFanny]@PhilCornwall1 I wonder if the GF is in fact grandad from Only Fools and Horses[/quote]
🤣🤣

Does it really matter?

B was rude, she’s been punished and has apologised. A wasn’t rude but seems to accept the loss of the treat.

The grandparents are still pissed off, presumably they will calm down at some point. Just give them some space for now and wait for them to come round. It’s unlikely they are going to permanently cut off contact with one of their children because an eleven year old was a cheeky sod.

Obviously if the treat was something like school fees, the parents need to have a word. But assuming it is something like riding lessons or a holiday, which is a shame to miss out on but not life-altering, just suck it up and accept that if B is rude to people, she can’t predict the outcome.

Definitely doesn’t warrant all this hand-wringing from friends of friends.

B was cheeky/ rude 3 times so it wasn’t just the odd comment. How sad it wasn’t stopped at the beginning. It seems parents have also misjudged how upset GF is about his long nose/ yacht or whatever it is.
MAybe this needs to be remembered in future.
Was the apology sincere , sometimes sorry is said and not meant and maybe that’s what GF is thinking - Oh B is only saying sorry but I shall be at the butt of her jokes Again and everyone will think it’s funny .
Poor GM caught up in the middle of this too, she probably wants to communicate with her children and grandchildren but will stand by her man as that’s what is done.

Are there cousins who are also getting these privileges which would make it strained when we get back to normal and have get- togethers. Some gPArents treat grandchildren differently because they are from different children which hurts and this will be obvious.
Hurt feelings all round and nobody will feel good about this. How very sad when we live in difficult times when we should be putting family first. Has this * virus not made everyone think how precious families are?
I hope it will get resolved before it’s too late by a sincere apology and an acceptance of this apology. I hope B will realise that there are boundaries to being cheeky and not to hurt others and also realise what a great sibling she has.
As said by someone a letter of apology may help.

The. Sea. Shanty. Thing. Didn't. Happen.

It was a fake example given by the OP. And even then, there's a range of reasonableness in the specifics. Grandad got drunk, bumped the yacht into the harbour and wrote it off may well deserve a few rounds of What Shall We Do With A Drunken Sailor. Grandad got caught out by weather, yacht sank in chilly waters and had a frightening rescue followed by a day or two in hospital - less funny. Also possibly relevant to the punishment - if, say, the treat removed is teaching them to sail.

OP, for the love of God, if you don't want to be specific, fine. But clear up:

• is the treat something that can be given individually?
• is the treat related to the punishment?
• is the treat money paid to the parents to provide over time or more of an occasional one off?

The idea of collective punishment is that the group will then exact their own punishment on the person who committed the thing for which they are all being punished.

So the perpetrator ends up punished multiple times and isolated.

That seems to be happening here - with your friend and her child punishing B - who is 11.

GF controls them all - your DF included - through money.

DF needs to grow a backbone and stop letting him do that.

B may well have been extremely rude. Or just a kid.

Your DF needs to supervise calls, so that in future she can sort things.

I'm guessing she wasn't supervising because she finds her father difficult and so leaves the children to manage him.

Your DF needs to stop right now letting her father erode the sibling relationship between A and B. She is actually, really helping create a corrosive situation.

And I think DF needs to acknowledge she has a difficult parent and make sure she doesn't offload that difficulty into her children - who are only 13 and 11.

The grandparents sound like a right piece of work and doubt their grandchildren will want to bother with their petty spite once lockdown is over. I'd just forget it and tell the grandfather not to bother trying to engage with his grandchildren in future if he is going to be an arse about it.

Grandfather is a prick. Your friend should tell him so and leave them to stew.