To tell you all how much of a crock of shite sleep training is...

[Butusernamessuck]

And how unreasonable it is to propagate that utter torrid hell onto tired and desperate parents.

2 hours into what is labled as "gentle sleep training" with my ebf Velcro baby and my entire family will never be the same.

The baby in question is distraught despite constant physical and verbal reassurance from me. He's vomited all over himself, me, his cot and my bed. 35 minutes after giving up he is still shaking and sobbing (and dry heaving) in between frantic breastfeeds. Hes scratched his face to the point of bleeding and cried himself hoarse.

I was present the whole time. Shhhhing, patting and stroking as per the "suffle" method. Picking up and soothing and putting back down with a kiss and reassurance. He just screamed. And screamed. And screamed.

At the 2 hour mark he threw up and choked on it. Thats when I gave up.

Not, however before deeply traumatising my baby, myself and all my other kids.

He obviously woke them all up. The 5 year old has fallen asleep crying in my bed, the 11 year old stormed off back to bed with headphones after telling me he thinks sleep training is abusive and the 9 year old sat outside my room, shaking the whole time. Once I gave up and begun cleaning up the vomit he asked me if I did that to him as a baby. I told him no, this baby is the only one I've had as a single parent and as a result of the disrupted 3 or 4 hours a night I am really struggling. I tried this out of utter desperation because I had read on here that although it may be a bit hard going, it really works and is torally harmless.

9 year old just sighed and said he doesn't think the baby will forgive me as he couldn't if i did that to him. Hes not sure he can forgive me for doing it to the baby, apparently he didn't think he had a mean mum.

So. My review of sleep training someone who simply cannot rationalise what's happening.. Snake oil bull shit that ruins lives.

If it worked for you whoopie friggin do .. You lucked out .. Implying to parents on their knees with exhaustion that it is a one stop cure all for naughty babies manipulating love and affection is barbaric

Hes finally asleep .. Still making sobbing noises .. Or maybe that's just one of the other kids. Or me.

I don't think that "sleep training" is just one brutal exercise, tbh. I can see how you would get so desperate that you would go for a more extreme one though.

I did sleep train with DD, but this included moving towards bottle feeding, holding to sleep, putting her down in a crib in her own room, then doing less and less with her, using a special song at bedtime and then, finally, seeing if I could put her down sleepy, let her winge a bit (but NOT howl or shake or vomit or whatever - not cold turkey) and see if she would sleep. It was a process. I don't think it is a straight choice between cosleeping and cry it out - some will do cry it out and have it work, but most I suspect will have done at least many of these steps with their babies first, so it isn't such a shock.

Your baby won't remember this. You are not an abuser, you just need to find something that works better for you - maybe night weaning is more realistic at this stage and might help to promote sleep even when cosleeping and doing other gentle things.

Oh that sounds dreadful. But it’s easy to try things in desperation. Especially when so many people say that it’s works easily. And for some kids it probably does. I tried it with naps once and my baby screamed for 40 minutes until he was bright red and hyperventilating. It was awful.

What did work at around that age was night weaning. It also involves a bit of crying but I didn’t feel so bad because I was still cuddling them. And still bed sharing. And there wasn’t any of the hysterical screaming.

It isn't bullshit because it can and does work for many babies. The reason that advocates of it can be a bit defensive is because of the vocal people who consider sleep training to be selfish, evil torture of a helpless baby that will ruin their chances of happiness or empathy as an adult, and that years of broken sleep is a privilege of some sort

OP I'm sorry it hasn't worked for you. I really hope something improves for you all. I don't know what but I do empathise. You've got a lot on your plate just now and the lack of sleep makes everything feel utterly impossible.

I might be being really thick but I thought sleep training was leaving babies to cry it out? If you are giving verbal and physical reassurance, surely that is comforting the baby?

I don't really understand what you think you did wrong? Just sounds like a really shit night with an upset baby. That is obviously not great for you mentally and but equally not something you should beat yourself up over.

I agree with a comment above about those who find sleeping training easier than other.. I wonder if those babies were on the verge of self settling anyway?

Yanbu at all and please don't beat yourself up. You tried something that you hoped would work for you all and it didn't. The main thing is you realised it the first night, not three nights in like me 😞, and stopped.

We had a very very similar experience so I completely feel for you and understand how you're feeling. You're other children are upset but will absolutely forgive you. You're their mum!

If co sleeping for part of the night gets you enough rest to feel okay and function the next day, do it.

Sleep training worked for us BUT that doesn’t sound as gentle as our method which took about 2 weeks to get to that stage.

We used Millpond sleep clinic. The sleep training was very very gradual changes. Same age baby too.

Oh OP I've just been through similar and it's awful. Thought we'd cracked it at 9 months but seemed to have hit another 10 month sleep regression.

Oddly with my DS my presence made it worse. I tried camping out next to his cot and held his hands through the bars which made him scream, claw at his face wriggle etc. He kept it up for 4 hours one night.

Tips from me are:

Make sure baby gets plenty of crawling and other exercise in the day

Don't let baby get overtired - make sure they have napped twice in the day (ideally in the cot rather than in the buggy or car) and don't put to bed late as being overtired can make them frantic

I give my DS some banana baby cereal at bedtime which he loves and seems to settle him (he refuses formula)

Put them in the cot drowsy but awake at bedtime, get them to fall asleep on their own, don't rock or put them on the cot asleep. Reassure at 10 minute intervals of necessary

If (when) they wake in the night leave for 10 minutes before going in. This is the hardest but I learnt with my DS that after 10 minutes all he needed was settling back down and he went back to sleep. If I went in earlier it made him more excited and frantic.

Hope that helps a bit. It will definitely pass soon, don't forget that

You're on baby No4 and still haven't worked out they're all different and to trust your instincts and be led by them? You're definitely massively sleep deprived and not thinking straight. And don't listen to the 9yo who seems to be adding to your guilt...

Hope you get some support soon and can catch up with some sleep, it'll make all the difference to you.

(cry it out/shush pat worked brilliantly for my 1st, but my 2nd it didn't btw).

This is all entirely personal opinion and anyone who thinks the opposite is no more or less right than me, just everyone had a different way of dealing with it.

I personally feel it’s a load of too. It’s people naturally wanting to take control of a difficult situation.

Mine have been terrible sleepers, and I have just accepted that this sometimes torturous amount of sleep deprivation will be for a few years. I’ve cuddled and fed mine to sleep (they’ve never hit this mythical drowsy but awake state), we’ve co-slept and whatever else we had to for everyone to maximise sleep.

My attitude is that it won’t be forever. I’m really strict about the bedtime routine part of it, but I truly believe that babies sometimes just don’t sleep, and I refuse to give any head space to this notion of it must be fixed and you’re somehow doing it wrong because your baby doesn’t sleep through the night.

Both approaches end up at the same place eventually, so really, it’s about what works for you. Hope you get some sleep soon!!

Been there OP. My kids were both the same-they never gave up and just got further and further from sleep. I had one throw up too. Traumatic! Feel your pain.

I love it when people say they wouldn’t co sleep. I would have said that too until my second child who would not sleep any other way. Even on the night she was born the midwives said they had never seen a baby so resistant to being put down!

Im sorry I cant respond to everyone individually but theres so many now.

Also sorry for the unintentional drop feed inwas so exhausted and emotional I just needed to dump my feelings somewhere

So last nigjt wasnt about night weaning at all and more about just tryinf to encourage sleeping in his cot because I suspect sleeping with me is what is triggering 50% of the night feeds. He seemes to stir a little, realise I'm there gets fussy, latches on and doesnt feed just sorta uses me as a dummy (which he will not take, at all. Or a bottle).

I had kept him downstairs with me until all the older boys were asleep in hopes to.avoid upsetting them. They are all very much in love and devoted to their baby brother and the older two are very actively involved in the responsive style.parenting I exhibit.

He was drowsy when carried up and placed in his cot, he went from whimpering to screaming in about 10 seconds. The book says to pat and shhhh until they set up or get in the crawl position and then lift them and cuddle in a cradle position until they calm down and then put them back in the cot and rinse and repeat.

It expressly said to just stick with the screaming, not to give in or allow guilt to stop the process or the upset before was for nothing.

I should have been clearer but it was immediately stopped the moment he started wretching. I picked him up and as he was lifted out he threw up and it went in the cot, on us both and then my bed as I sat down in shock.

At that point he was quickly changed into a clean sleep.suit and brought into my bed. He usually sleepa in his own space when not feesing but last night slept in.my arms all night.

He seems perfectly happy this morning thank goodness if a little hoarse.

Ive talked with the older boys and apologised the older two said they just couldnt understand why kiddo something so hard going with one when I havent with the others. We've talked and ive explained it was a bad decision born of good.intention and everyone seems a lot calmer. 5 year old has asked me if the baby is ok now and cuddled me lots. Im.going to ensure he has plenty of opportunity to talk to me about any worries last night gave him.

Day napping ... Issue I have (again sorry for drip feed) eldest is being allowed to attend school as he has fallen so behind and veey few KW places have been taken up for yr7.

9 yesr old can't be left to mind the 5 year old as they're the two with additional needs. 9 year old has ADHD and learning disabilities and 5 year old has Arnold chiari malformation And epilepsy. They attend school part time so I get days with only one of them here.

My mum has bubbled with us and comes over a few days a week but takes offensive if I nap with the baby. Their dad is brilliant but works long hours Monday to Friday. At the weekend he is brilliant and helps loads. We gave a brilliant co parenting relationship and he has been a lifeline.

I think I answered everyone.. Oh wait.. Those of you that said I'm unreasonable because it worked for.you... You utterly missed the point of my post.

I was tryinf to iterate the dangers of comments like yours made to desperate parents on their knees. So thanks for your unhelpful contribution. I hope it helped you to validate your experience whilst kicking me while I'm down.

You haven’t broken your baby. Tell the guilt tripper to hold his tongue (thanks a bunch, don’t interfere). You sound at the end of your rope but it’s a new day tomorrow don’t despair

Some of the comments above are unnecessarily sanctimonious given this lady is clearly sleep deprived and distressed.

I've had an "easy" baby and a trickier one and I agree its a load of shite.

Yabu. It worked for me. But I didn't do it like you did. Babies didn't get distressed or vomit

Wtaf? What a horrible comment. It worked for me so you must have done it wrong.
Fucks sake.

OP, I am WITH you. I tried PUPD and it was fucking hell. Never, never again. He always wanted to be fed to sleep, to be close. He too was a velcro baby. He's extremely independent now.

It didn't make a rod for my own back. It wasn't my fault he was a clingy baby. There was nothing I could do to change that. That was just the way he was.

I know that now because DD is a glorious baby and sleeps. She is just a different sleeper...
I feed her to sleep and we co-sleep... exactly the same as DS. But she let's me leave her. I couldn't leave DS until he was 1.

Go back to what you were doing before. Resist the pressure and just go with the flow as much as you can. It won't last forever.

Oh I feel for you so much. I'm barely coping with sleep deprivation with one, if that helps you put your feelings into perspective.
I tried sleep training too, just the once. I know other mums who raved about it, but my baby (5 months at the time, nearly 8 months now) became hysterical. I gave up after 12 minutes and felt like the worst mum in the world.
I read somewhere that babies respond in one of two ways to crying - some use it to vent frustration, get tired, and conk out. Others become 'accelerators'; the crying increases their agitation and they cannot then calm down. I think my baby falls into the latter camp...
It's fine to trust your instincts and parent how you see best but you must get some support as you cannot do this by yourself. Even if it's just having a chat with the HV for baby, and GP for you. Sending virtual hugs; you're not alone in feeling like this.

Oh I am so sorry that sounds so tough for all of you. I had a similar experience when attempting to sleep train my oldest using controlled crying. It was so traumatic and he became really clingy for a few weeks afterwards. I don’t think there is one approach that works for all babies and for some babies no approach works as they just aren’t ready. For us a stay and support approach did work, it sounds like your baby just isn’t ready or would need a much more gradual approach to work.

Sorry read your update! Glad you have your mum on hand- mine can be funny with me napping too, but I think she realised just how tired I was when I fell asleep on the floor the other day whilst she hoovered around me!!

If I had a penny for every time I've read that you've got to persevere or all their suffering to that point has been in vain...

There comes a point where you have to use your common sense though. I'd say that would generally be before the baby is so distressed that they're vomiting.

I’m not sure why people are saying that no sleep training method would advocate for leaving a baby to cry until he was sick. Lots do! Ferber who developed controlled crying dedicates a whole chapter in his book on dealing with babies who cry so much they are sick- his advice is to clean them up with as little fuss and carry on. Some sleep training methods involve shutting the door at 7pm and not returning until 7am no matter how many hours they cry for.

@Butusernamessuck I have found the same with sleep training and that's with just one DC in the house. You clearly have three lovely caring older children and the fourth well on the way to the same, don't forget that in your tiredness.

We didn't co sleep but had DD in a next to me til about the age yours is (she is petite) and had the frequent wakings too. When we were ready, we moved her so she was in the room still but further away. Then she went in her own room and we responded to each waking with a feed/cuddle until fully asleep. The wakings became less frequent and now she sleeps through most nights, teething or a disrupted day messes this up but generally still only one wake up which is absolutely fine.

She sometimes decided she hated her cot and wouldn't settle every time we put her down. It was at these points we tried a few times with various sleep training but it clearly wasn't going to work for our stubborn little lady. So on those nights we give up and co sleep. 9 times out of 10 she goes into her cot and sleeps through the next night so co-sleeping isn't an expectation, it's just a survival strategy.

I guess what I'm saying is that the going gently at your own pace is completely achievable- you know this because you've done it before- but the game changer for us was gently moving away from having food on tap and us all shuffling about and disturbing each other in our sleep. If you can crack the co-sleeping when you're ready and get it to the point where you only use it when it's clear it's needed to get your family through the night, you should get a few nights of half decent rest in between which will make the bad nights so much more bearable

@Ohalrightthen

If I had a penny for every time I've read that you've got to persevere or all their suffering to that point has been in vain...

There comes a point where you have to use your common sense though. I'd say that would generally be before the baby is so distressed that they're vomiting.

Ah, but OP is already overriding her common sense because her common sense, as a gentle parent, tells her not to ignore her baby when he wants to be picked up.

We didn't sleep train, but it doesn't sound to me like what you did was particularly brutal. It sounds to me as if you're parenting by committee a bit with your older kids and I would try to break away from that if you can. I'm sure they are lovely but a 9 and 11 year old have no idea what it is like to parent and certainly no understanding of the pressure on you as a single parent of 4.

@Ohalrightthen I am going to guess that you have one baby who was easy to sleep train. In my experience most babies do get pretty distressed during the first few days of sleep training unless you use a very very gradual approach. Some babies adapt quickly and easily- I have one of these. Most do not though.

Oh I think you are raising some amazing empathetic children.

If you can’t get enough sleep at night I would try whatever it takes to sleep, or even have still resting time during the day. In the past I’ve taken a non napping toddler, myself and baby to bed for a nap the middle of the day by giving the toddler a tablet headphones. Not ideal but better than falling asleep in the sofa and I think it sounds like your older children would understand just how tired you are, so if you can’t leave them unsupervised take them all to bed with you. Also, your mum needs to be less offended. I don’t have suggestions for that!

Yes you are being unreasonable. I sleep trained all three of mine - they have all ‘forgiven’ me.
They are all now brilliant sleepers and I am a better parent because I’m not exhausted. Was it hard - yes. Did any of them vomit or scratch their faces - no.

Did I think my babies were ‘naughty’ and tricking me for love and affection - no. They didn’t know how to get to sleep on their own and I wasn’t in a position mentally where I could wait for them to learn by themselves.

I understand that you were distraught at the time you posted but you come across as aggressive and judgemental. If you are desperate for help and still co-sleep then I suggest looking at the Jay Gordon method www.drjaygordon.com/blog-detail/sleep-changing-patterns-in-the-family-bed However I’ll give the caveat that there is crying. No sleep training is completely gentle and I’m not ‘forcing’ this on you. I’m just sharing something that worked for me.

Good luck.