To tell you all how much of a crock of shite sleep training is...

[Butusernamessuck]

And how unreasonable it is to propagate that utter torrid hell onto tired and desperate parents.

2 hours into what is labled as "gentle sleep training" with my ebf Velcro baby and my entire family will never be the same.

The baby in question is distraught despite constant physical and verbal reassurance from me. He's vomited all over himself, me, his cot and my bed. 35 minutes after giving up he is still shaking and sobbing (and dry heaving) in between frantic breastfeeds. Hes scratched his face to the point of bleeding and cried himself hoarse.

I was present the whole time. Shhhhing, patting and stroking as per the "suffle" method. Picking up and soothing and putting back down with a kiss and reassurance. He just screamed. And screamed. And screamed.

At the 2 hour mark he threw up and choked on it. Thats when I gave up.

Not, however before deeply traumatising my baby, myself and all my other kids.

He obviously woke them all up. The 5 year old has fallen asleep crying in my bed, the 11 year old stormed off back to bed with headphones after telling me he thinks sleep training is abusive and the 9 year old sat outside my room, shaking the whole time. Once I gave up and begun cleaning up the vomit he asked me if I did that to him as a baby. I told him no, this baby is the only one I've had as a single parent and as a result of the disrupted 3 or 4 hours a night I am really struggling. I tried this out of utter desperation because I had read on here that although it may be a bit hard going, it really works and is torally harmless.

9 year old just sighed and said he doesn't think the baby will forgive me as he couldn't if i did that to him. Hes not sure he can forgive me for doing it to the baby, apparently he didn't think he had a mean mum.

So. My review of sleep training someone who simply cannot rationalise what's happening.. Snake oil bull shit that ruins lives.

If it worked for you whoopie friggin do .. You lucked out .. Implying to parents on their knees with exhaustion that it is a one stop cure all for naughty babies manipulating love and affection is barbaric

Hes finally asleep .. Still making sobbing noises .. Or maybe that's just one of the other kids. Or me.

@JesusInTheCabbageVan

Not much plans for anything else. YABU - You do need to be doing some pretty serious food planning too, unless you're one of those weird families that doesn't spend every waking hour obsessing about what you're going to eat next. Pizza, curry, Chinese?

And just to echo what others are saying. Your baby won't remember a thing of this and it won't have harmed him in the slightest. You were there with him the whole time and he was never frightened.

You're of course correct ... Pizza hut lunch for all as a surprise .. May even let the baby try pizza by way of apologising

Perfect. I think you'll find you go from Darth Vader to mum of the year in the ring of a doorbell.

@VestaTilley

YABU OP. It depends on the child, and whether you get a sleep plan from a proper consultant, as opposed to just reading about it and trying it yourself. Really sorry to hear about your baby though, that must have been so distressing. The key is to keep your voice and actions calm, don’t talk in a voice that implies “you’re sorry and that being put down is horrible isn’t it” else that’ll just reinforce to the baby that being put down isn’t nice. If your baby is being sick etc I’d want to check there’s nothing else going on.

We got a sleep plan from a consultant and sleep trained at 7 months. We did gentle controlled crying, so going back in to reassure but not pick up- briefly at 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 min intervals (only up to 4 mins on night 1, then 5 mins on night 2). It worked in three nights and DS has slept through since then, aside from the odd nights of teething etc. My DS was never throwing up with it or anything though.

I had to do it to save my sanity and marriage. It was a life saver and I’d recommend it to anyone. If this plan hasn’t worked I’d recommend trying another. But you do have to follow it to the letter.

DM me if you want the name of the consultant we used.

Thank you for your thoughtful and considerate response. I never expected blind agreeable responses but structured, thoughtful and restful discussion always helps!!

I'm going to give up on the idea for a while but please do PM me the details for possible future consideration

@FTEngineerM

I only tried for one night, my baby was shaking vomiting and hysterical. I don’t care how tired I am I couldn’t inflict that on my baby.

It was awful and I’m totally with you. I’m concerned for people who said it worked you’ve just got to carry on, how can you sit through that doing minimal efforts to comfort your baby, it’s absurd.

As a side note: I stopped bfing my baby at night he’s 8 months and we’re 2 weeks in he’s done two full nights sleep and now only wakes for small cuddle or dummy maybe once/twice a night. Win in my book.

I think when the time is right I will night wean rather than sleep train

@Dustyhedge

It must be hard on your own with 4 so no-one could fault you for trying. It just sounds like the method wasn’t right for you or your little one. I’ve always been quite strict with sleep but there will always be evenings when I end up cuddling mine or having them in bed. My normally excellent sleeper spent 3 hours one night last week crying and the only way to get her back to sleep was to have her in our bed. She just needed to be near one of us for what we reason.

Can you look at smaller steps that might get you towards more sleep like cutting out one night feed or moving from co-sleeping to sleeping in the cot in a really gradual way?

The only other thing I wondered reading your posts was whether the baby might have been a bit wired and overstimulated if you waited until your others had gone to bed. My youngest absolutely couldn’t cope past 7 unless they were in a darkened room and asleep. The thing we found worked for us with her was being really strict about awake times between naps.

He had been asleep down stairs since 7:30 .. He'll sleep in a travel cot in the lounge next to me on the sofa for naps and 7:30-i go up.. Then in with me

You sound like an fantastic mum and your children are a credit to you. Bad nights happen and you were only trying your best for your family. I hope you have a nice calm day and a better night tonight.

@JesusInTheCabbageVan

Perfect. I think you'll find you go from Darth Vader to mum of the year in the ring of a doorbell.

I suspect you're right hah!!

That sounds really tough OP. Even with support from mum and ex the nights must be really long and challenging. I think you need to spell it out to your DM that your health is at risk so can she please support you to have a daytime nap.

FWIW the one touchstone I used when sleep training which I never found in the books, is that it only works when the baby is old enough that you can tell the difference between their “I’m bored and pissed off and want X” cry and their “I am devastated and terrified because I have been abandoned and this is the end of the world” cry. Responding to the second but not necessarily the first needs to be your guide if you’re sleep training, but all babies are different.

@Butusernamessuck

Im trying very hard to ignore the mean comments ans those that have deliberately ignored the point od my post to come and literally say these kind of things. Trust me comments like yours and the support outweigh the meaness by a wide margin and make suffering the unpleasent worth it.

Ignore them all OP! I think the success of sleep training definitely depends on the baby to some extent and may work for some and as you say, yay for them! But the reality is, it doesn't work for everyone...I'm currently dismantling my 11 months old DS's cot that we only use for storing the clothes he grew out of. Money well spent, huh? As a FTM, I felt enormous pressure to get my baby to "sleep well" which somehow meant being sleep trained, sleeping alone etc. It was torture for everybody! There's been no sleeping issues ever since we have been cosleeping. Everyone is well rested, baby is happy and content, our marriage is not strained (despite what many people think). I'm not an advocate for cosleeping and it's not the point of my post, the point is I firmly believe everyone should do what works best for their baby and their family. YANBU! Sleep training is not for everybody. Wish people understood that...

And regarding weaning - that was what worked for me, although I've only got the one so hardly an expert! I fed him to sleep every night (and several times throughout the night 😬) every night for two years. Not because I had any strong convictions about attachment parenting, but just because it worked better than anything else we tried! I couldn't see a way out of it, but then he got a stomach bug and was happy with just water for a few nights. I seized the chance to stop bf-ing, and just like that, suddenly he was sleeping through.

@StrangerHereMyself

That sounds really tough OP. Even with support from mum and ex the nights must be really long and challenging. I think you need to spell it out to your DM that your health is at risk so can she please support you to have a daytime nap.

FWIW the one touchstone I used when sleep training which I never found in the books, is that it only works when the baby is old enough that you can tell the difference between their “I’m bored and pissed off and want X” cry and their “I am devastated and terrified because I have been abandoned and this is the end of the world” cry. Responding to the second but not necessarily the first needs to be your guide if you’re sleep training, but all babies are different.

That is very helpful thank you - currently he is a 0-60 baby over every slight inconvenience but hes already pretty ahead in his development which I think plays a part in it all

You're so right. Tuere are no good and bad sleepers. Jusy babies that need different things.

Just do whatever works for you. My little one gets in bed with us about 10pm, we like the cuddles and we all like the sleep. Whatever you do (or don’t do), the stage will pass and they will eventually sleep. I could never sleep train and my Velcro baby is now a Velcro toddler but independent when he needs to be. Sleep deprivation is truly awful but it gets better xx

@JesusInTheCabbageVan

And regarding weaning - that was what worked for me, although I've only got the one so hardly an expert! I fed him to sleep every night (and several times throughout the night 😬) every night for two years. Not because I had any strong convictions about attachment parenting, but just because it worked better than anything else we tried! I couldn't see a way out of it, but then he got a stomach bug and was happy with just water for a few nights. I seized the chance to stop bf-ing, and just like that, suddenly he was sleeping through.

I suspect any sort of weaning we engage in will be accidental and coincidental haha

@Montysauras

Just do whatever works for you. My little one gets in bed with us about 10pm, we like the cuddles and we all like the sleep. Whatever you do (or don’t do), the stage will pass and they will eventually sleep. I could never sleep train and my Velcro baby is now a Velcro toddler but independent when he needs to be. Sleep deprivation is truly awful but it gets better xx

Thank you - its so silly really because I know a day nap is all i need. Ive done this 3 times before. Older two napped all together in bed with me as there was only 22 months between them and older two were at school when I had DS3 so i napped when he did.

Seeing the baby nap and HAVING to stay awake is worse than the nights.

The thing is, all babies have different personalities. So what works for one doesn’t for another and nights are the same. The amount of people who sleep train and say ‘just so this, it was only a few mins of crying’ Well I know for a fact that my kids would have been like yours.

OP you sound like a very lovely mum! The way you talk about your boys is beautiful.
Please don’t beat yourself up. Your little one won’t remember.
Sleep deprivation is the worst. I only have 1 to deal with, hat off to you for managing with 4!!
Wishing you all the best with sprinkles of sleepy dust for your little one

@SwanShaped

The thing is, all babies have different personalities. So what works for one doesn’t for another and nights are the same. The amount of people who sleep train and say ‘just so this, it was only a few mins of crying’ Well I know for a fact that my kids would have been like yours.

This. In spades. Thank you :)

@June628

OP you sound like a very lovely mum! The way you talk about your boys is beautiful. Please don’t beat yourself up. Your little one won’t remember. Sleep deprivation is the worst. I only have 1 to deal with, hat off to you for managing with 4!! Wishing you all the best with sprinkles of sleepy dust for your little one

Thank you so much - hes currently enjoying a well earned nap hah!

I tried sleep-training with me first (not to the point of vomiting, but on one occasion she was sobbing for ages afterwards), and it achieved nothing! She's now 10 and still hates sleeping because she finds it boring! With my second, I co-slept for the first five years and he has always been a fantastic sleeper. It was totally stress-free second time round and the whole family got the sleep they needed. Depending on the age of your baby co-sleeping is not recommended though because it can increase the risk of SIDS.

Go easy on yourself today OP. I share your thoughts on sleep training which is why I haven’t done it. Trust your normal instincts and have faith that it’ll get better. Is there someone you could bubble with instead who’d be more sympathetic to your need to rest and nap than your mum? Is your ex having them enough to give you a chance to catch up on sleep when you can?

I second the beyond sleep training project if you’re on Facebook. They also have a website now if you’re not. You’ll find likeminded parents who can empathise and offer support and advice. Sometimes knowing other people are in a similar boat is enough to get you through an exhausted day.

My mum lives in a terrace next door to a couple who’ve been “sleep training” their 6 month old. The baby has been screaming for hours a night for two weeks and mum is on her knees. She had 4 children and said she’s never known the like. It’s taking all of her self control not to offer to take the baby for a night so everyone can get some sleep.

Ignore the twats OP. This topic always brings out the sociopaths.

You sound amazing. I’m also really struggling with sleep training at the moment. Haven’t had an experience as bad as you but ethically it’s not sitting right with me with my second baby, despite doing “gentle” sleep training on my first with great success.

I’d really recommend looking at Lyndsey Hookway on Instagram. She knows her stuff and completely smashes a load of myths and bullshit commonly spouted about baby sleep/sleep training.

Please don’t beat yourself up. A one off night of trauma will mean nothing against the loving secure compassionate mum you obviously are.

Hugs to you. I had a screamer for a baby. Like, constant. All day. Constant. Grew out of naps very VERY quickly. Cried and squealed ALL THE TIME. drove me mental. I’ve never heard the shuffle method. But my dc cried till throwing up as well. Then cried some more. And didn’t feed well either. Always fractious. Did grow out of it ( gp said it was colic, tried every remedy under the sun. All complete bollocks. I truly don’t remember when I started putting kids down on their own?? I do remember going in and putting my hand in them to settle them though. Sorry you’re going through this. And in your own please reach out to someone. Friend / family. The father. Health visitor. You’re allowed help with kids. You need a break. Your children will be ok. You’re not a bad mum. Your tired and stressed and stretched to your limit.

FWIW sleep training goes against the UNICEF baby friendly practices.

So, I agree with you OP. If a baby is crying it's because it's needs aren't being met. Some babies just have a higher need for physical touch and comfort than others.

In my opinion sleep training only works because it teaches babies that no one will come and meet your needs when you cry, and makes them withdraw.

What you really need OP, is pointing in the right direction for support. If you feel supported, then you'll be able to get through this phase.

@AnneLovesGilbert

Go easy on yourself today OP. I share your thoughts on sleep training which is why I haven’t done it. Trust your normal instincts and have faith that it’ll get better. Is there someone you could bubble with instead who’d be more sympathetic to your need to rest and nap than your mum? Is your ex having them enough to give you a chance to catch up on sleep when you can?

I second the beyond sleep training project if you’re on Facebook. They also have a website now if you’re not. You’ll find likeminded parents who can empathise and offer support and advice. Sometimes knowing other people are in a similar boat is enough to get you through an exhausted day.

My mum lives in a terrace next door to a couple who’ve been “sleep training” their 6 month old. The baby has been screaming for hours a night for two weeks and mum is on her knees. She had 4 children and said she’s never known the like. It’s taking all of her self control not to offer to take the baby for a night so everyone can get some sleep.

Thank you - I'll check that out. Im not on Facebook but I'll look at the website.

Yikes 6 months old ... That's just.. I mean they're so tiny then!