To tell you all how much of a crock of shite sleep training is...

[Butusernamessuck]

And how unreasonable it is to propagate that utter torrid hell onto tired and desperate parents.

2 hours into what is labled as "gentle sleep training" with my ebf Velcro baby and my entire family will never be the same.

The baby in question is distraught despite constant physical and verbal reassurance from me. He's vomited all over himself, me, his cot and my bed. 35 minutes after giving up he is still shaking and sobbing (and dry heaving) in between frantic breastfeeds. Hes scratched his face to the point of bleeding and cried himself hoarse.

I was present the whole time. Shhhhing, patting and stroking as per the "suffle" method. Picking up and soothing and putting back down with a kiss and reassurance. He just screamed. And screamed. And screamed.

At the 2 hour mark he threw up and choked on it. Thats when I gave up.

Not, however before deeply traumatising my baby, myself and all my other kids.

He obviously woke them all up. The 5 year old has fallen asleep crying in my bed, the 11 year old stormed off back to bed with headphones after telling me he thinks sleep training is abusive and the 9 year old sat outside my room, shaking the whole time. Once I gave up and begun cleaning up the vomit he asked me if I did that to him as a baby. I told him no, this baby is the only one I've had as a single parent and as a result of the disrupted 3 or 4 hours a night I am really struggling. I tried this out of utter desperation because I had read on here that although it may be a bit hard going, it really works and is torally harmless.

9 year old just sighed and said he doesn't think the baby will forgive me as he couldn't if i did that to him. Hes not sure he can forgive me for doing it to the baby, apparently he didn't think he had a mean mum.

So. My review of sleep training someone who simply cannot rationalise what's happening.. Snake oil bull shit that ruins lives.

If it worked for you whoopie friggin do .. You lucked out .. Implying to parents on their knees with exhaustion that it is a one stop cure all for naughty babies manipulating love and affection is barbaric

Hes finally asleep .. Still making sobbing noises .. Or maybe that's just one of the other kids. Or me.

I paid 500 pound for a sleep trainer at one point that was so pointless and didn't work. Everybody is different, but I had a very sleepless and extraordinarily determined baby and I honestly don't think anything would have worked. He's 3 now and sleeps fine. I had one night similar to yours and I vowed never again. I just don't think a couple of years of cuddling a baby to sleep is that bad compared to the fight that it would have been to get him to "self-settle".

Sleep training didn't work with my son. He's not clingy but he is very determined! He would scream the house down if we tried to make him cry it out or didn't give him what he wanted. Just wasn't worth it. Plus he was really shaken by the nights where we hard balled it. In the end it was just easier if we cuddled him to sleep.

All babies are different. Do what works for you.

It sounds like you are having a hard time. Can't be easy.

Sending sympathy and solidarity. I tried it when my little girl was about 10 months. I paid someone £400 to offer advice and give me a plan. The first night she cried so hard she vomited. My 'sleep therapist' told me to leave her in the vomit and that I wasn't being 'regimented' enough.
That was the end of that. Told the lady we were not a right fit and ended the plan.
She's now 2 and sleeps all night. But until then I let her sleep in beside me and it made life easier.
It does get better I promise. You do what works for you to survive xx

I do y know of any sleep training method that would advocate letting a baby scream until it was sick for two hours

Are you coping generally OP? Is there anyone you can ask for help? I think you must have been truly desperate to put your baby through that, and it must be incredibly hard with 4 kids on your own. If you don’t have friends or family you can call on it might be worth asking your GP or HV if they know of any other support you can access to help you get through this.

Babies are all different.

It makes no difference if your style is routine or attachment, if your baby won’t sleep, they won’t.

I think there are many types of sleep training. I have bf my co-sleeping ds for 2 1/2 years. Sleep has been awful for 2 1/2 years with no light at the end of the tunnel! I never did sleep training as everyone around me said "this time is so short just soak up the cuddles" On monday, i wore a bra to sleep and would just cuddle him when he wanted milk. I had a night of whimpering, the next much less and last night, he stayed in his own bed until 2am them came in with me with no milk! He's still fast asleep. I wish i would have done it sooner! There is nothing cute of fleeting about sleep deprivation!

At 9 or 10 months old you will need a much more gentle gradual method and NO sleep trying method involves you leaving a child distressed to the point of vomiting.

How would your baby fall asleep normally?

If being fed to sleep before, I would start first by rocking to sleep.then reduce gradually to holding as falling asleep, the reduce to patting tummy and holding head while in cot, then just hand on tummy while singing quietly etc, then moving gradually out of room singing etc. Lots of children will not need this and if put down fussing will whinge for all of 2 mins then nod off (my DS). Some will not need all the steps, with DD we just patted her tummy a few nights then found it wasnt long before we could leave the room with just a minute of fussing. Both were EBF but I tried not to feed to sleep past 3m.

A very clingy and persistent child will need at least a week if not two at each stage above and may need the same approach 2 or 3 times during the night, if you are trying to do it with minimal fuss. It is sleep "training". For most people the bit where you leave them fussing is the end of a process they have probably inadvertently been doing since birth, patting a baby to help it settle in a cot etc.

@spaceghetto

I think there are many types of sleep training. I have bf my co-sleeping ds for 2 1/2 years. Sleep has been awful for 2 1/2 years with no light at the end of the tunnel! I never did sleep training as everyone around me said "this time is so short just soak up the cuddles" On monday, i wore a bra to sleep and would just cuddle him when he wanted milk. I had a night of whimpering, the next much less and last night, he stayed in his own bed until 2am them came in with me with no milk! He's still fast asleep. I wish i would have done it sooner! There is nothing cute of fleeting about sleep deprivation!

Yeah, but yours is two and a half. Night weaning is gentler and easier after 18 months because they understand more. It probably wouldn't be that simple for OP's 10 month old.

I gave one of my babies prepared bottles of milk at that age and stood them up in the cot against the wall. It used to feed itself at night and did not cry till about 6 am when it was very wet.

Your baby won’t remember and will be fine but sleep training is bullshit that doesn’t work on the non sleepers or the very determined. I tried for a fortnight and failed with ds. He just howled didn’t vomit or anything but I got less sleep and more stress than before.
And don’t start me on you should have a good bedtime routine and they’ll sleep. My mother even spouts that garbage every so often and I have to say and really he’s going to have a bath his supper and a story and miraculously go to sleep yeah right.
You have my sympathy op I hope you and your family all have a nice relaxing day today.

It's bullshit. And if you go down that route you have to re- do it EVERY time there's an illness or a sleep regression or anything that disrupts them. And as you've found out it just doesn't work for some children at all. My first was the same. She still needs some support getting to sleep now at 3. It's just how she is.

Don't ignore your instincts. Do what works and makes you happy, not what you think you should do.

Look at the beyond sleep training project on Facebook.

Poor you. So shit. My DS hated the softly softly method. Drove him insane. Instead we got him used to no BFing or milk at night DH did all night wakings me lots of cuddles. Then we left him to cry without bollockkng about patting/shushing etc as that drove him insane. First night left for about 20 mins of crying, next night 10 then slept through. Think he found it more annoying that we were there and not picking him up than not there at all.

Thankfully I never bothered with sleep training any of my 3, I was not ready for any additional stress . I endured the sleepless nights until they sleep trained themselves. I co slept with them and even they eventually slept through, they moved to their own beds/ rooms. DC1 was the easiest, slept through from 6 weeks, DC2 3 years and DC3 2 years.

I do y know of any sleep training method that would advocate letting a baby scream until it was sick for two hours

Because there isn't one. Sleep training doesn't often 'work' in one night, so I think expectations were a bit high. Sorry it didn't work for you, it does for many people so I disagree that it's all crap.

How stressful

What’s the idea of staying with him but not picking him up?

I sleep trained mine by leaving them to cry it out for a bit on their own by about 7-8 months

They would not have stopped crying if I had stayed in the room!

My oldest had reflux and vomited in rage (pain) sometimes but I was able to distinguish pain-crying (being held upright soothed him) from grizzling/shouting

Hope you work out what is best for your baby

Know that feeling OP. Have four DC and my youngest didn't sleep through on his own until 21 months old. I used the gradual retreat technique. Yes, he did wail for me for about 10 minutes or so but calmed down as I lay down by his cot and shushed him. I needed a full night's sleep by this point (he was prem and spent five weeks in NICU at birth).

You will get there OP, sometimes you have to try a different method, but if that seems too much leave it for a month or two and try again. Don't be hard on yourself💐

Oh no, start on naps before night time sleep, hope it gets better for you very soon. Our sleep trained 2 year old has now turned into a nightmare sleeper 🤪😬🥺

@Sheepies

I do y know of any sleep training method that would advocate letting a baby scream until it was sick for two hours

Because there isn't one. Sleep training doesn't often 'work' in one night, so I think expectations were a bit high. Sorry it didn't work for you, it does for many people so I disagree that it's all crap.

There seem to be many that advocate this. OP was, by the sound of it, basically doing shush-pat and most sleep training methods say once you start it you don't abandon it. If I had a penny for every time I've read that you've got to persevere or all their suffering to that point has been in vain...

I had a similar experience of sleep training. Under the supervision of my health visitor who was amazing so I had less self doubt. She said that type of sleep training doesnt work for up to 30% of babies and there was some research to back that up. I found the 70% who it does work for very judgy and sure i was at fault and self inflicting my own sleep deprivation. It was a sort of knowing smile with a 'of course it doest work for some babies" with a tone that implied I just wasnt trying hard.

Dont worry. I thought i had destroyed my relationship as it was such a horrid experience. Health visitor said pop him in bed with you for a few nights, both get some sleep and that was that.

I completely agree with you, please don’t feel bad about it.
If you search the archives you’ll find hundreds of posts of people with more than one child saying how sleep seems to be just lack of the draw and one sibling is a great sleeper and another a horrid one despite same methods and /or sleep training attempt.
There are very obvious things you shouldn’t do that can interfere with babies’ sleep, but there’s no foolproof method, or even any method that will work for some people.
Both my kids were terrible sleepers, and all the well meaning advice about “you just have to do “this/that” didn’t work. Things only work when they are meant to work, I.e. , at the point where that particular baby is ready to sleep through, which is obviously not very much help when you are sleep deprived, but the baby will sleep eventually and will have no recollection of this night.

I'm sorry you've had a hard time, but you're massively unreasonable to call it a crock of shit as it's a life changer for many people, myself included. Different things with for different people.

Sending hugs to you OP. We have twins who are 4 now, both autistic, and sleep has always been a massive problem. It’s absolutely exhausting and I think you are doing a phenomenal job to cope with this and three other kids during a pandemic. I understand the desperation and I also understand the “not wanting to give in” when there’s already been so much distress as you then feel like you’ve put them through it for nothing. We have never done any sleep training - the issue with ours is that they are often just awake for long stretches in the night or take hours to go to sleep and often they’re not distressed but they do need to be watched for safety so there’s nothing sleep training could do, they’re wide awake and hurling themselves around. It’s super tough and I know that when you’re exhausted you’re not always thinking clearly either. It’s brutal and it will pass. Hang in there

Most 9 month olds don't sleep through the night. They need regular milk feeds still.

You tried it, it didn't work for you (I'd never let it get to the stage of baby throwing up - that doesn't sound gentle at all).

We nightweaned our babies at 14 months and they went from 3 hr wakes to sleeping for 12 hours solid.

Wait until your baby is ready

What support do you have OP? Kids dad, parents, siblings, support bubble? It's time to stop being super human and ask for some help I think

Self soothing at that age is impossible, it's just a buzzword to make people feel better about sleep training. In order to self soothe you have to have a degree of language development to the extent you can use it internally, impulse control, emotional regulation etc. These are parts of emotional regulation and development that aren't even really starting to develop until 3-4 years old. Just because a baby is happy to fall asleep alone, it doesn't mean they are soothing themselves. They might be gaining comfort from an instinctive behaviour like thumb/dummy sucking or they might just feel comfortable and safe in their bed. But neither is a conscious process that they are doing to themselves.

Many many adults struggle to self soothe - imagine how you feel when you're really upset/angry - it's not easy to wind down from that. Babies can't be "taught" to do it by letting them cry. It just doesn't make any logical sense.

Sleep training in the form of weaning a baby into a more independent sleep pattern may well be possible but I think you have absolutely been sold snake oil OP with this BS about not comforting them so they learn to self soothe. That's like chucking them in a swimming pool in order that they learn to swim. Nobody would do that these days so why do these methods persist when we're talking about tiny babies and sleep?? Sorry you had a horrible time :( I'm sure your baby will be absolutely fine with some love and attention. It's just one night and it sounds like you're very responsive and attached the rest of the time.

Anyway. In terms of sleep training - it's such a huge industry and so many desperate parents that you can make £££ out of that it's no wonder there are some dodgy players. And it's really really hard to know who to trust as there are loads that label themselves as "gentle" these days, more I suspect because it's another buzzword that has always been anti-sleep training.

In order for a baby to fall asleep they need the same as everyone does - to be comfortable, to be tired, to relax and to feel safe. The "problem" if you like is that a lot of babies need adult input to fulfil one or all of these conditions. If you want to change sleep patterns, it probably makes sense to work out which of these it is they are relying on you for and try to change one at a time, slowly. Not all at once and not by chucking them in the metaphorical deep end! But also recognise that although many babies will be comfortable, relaxed and safe-feeling in a cot on their own at 9 months old, a lot simply won't, and that is absolutely normal developmentally and not something to be concerned about. Of course this does not make it easy if their reliance on you disturbs your own sleep. So do whatever you need to do in the meantime to maximise your sleep - co-sleep, nap in the day (I would defo nap in the day with a 9 and 11 year old around unless one has SN! They can cope without you for an hour or two and wake you in an emergency.), go to bed at 7pm if you need to. And then if you want to change patterns, you want to start by identifying them and trying to wean them slowly, which you can probably work out an idea how to do without any books. That might involve soothing crying in a different way to how you'd normally do, or introducing a delay, or introducing something different into your daily routine so that your baby has a chance to become accustomed to something when they are not tired, or something like that.

And if all else fails, they DO get there eventually, just because their development catches up and they link their sleep cycles together.