To insist on vaccinated carers

[Oblahdeeoblahdoe]

One of the carers who goes into my elderly mum has refused the vaccine (she told mum) I'm really annoyed and want to request to the management that she doesn't attend to mum anymore. I feel if she wants to do this job she should have the vaccine in order to protect her clients. I know there's no proof yet it will protect against transmission on but most scientists believe it will. AIBU?

Salary is irrelevant to this discussion

No it’s not, not in the context that the underpaid have been more at risk as we have had to be in close contact with people who have been Covid positive on discharge from hospital from day dot and now you don’t want me in the house?

What annoys me is the amount of household mixing by families visiting their mum and bringing their granddaughter niece etc has been and continues to be unbelievable which I do understand from an emotional welfare perspective but I myself have not seen my own mother more than twice in a year so I won’t be preached to about my own personal choice.

No salary is not particularly irrelevant to this discussion and I’ll tell you why.

In the care home that I work in, only about 5% of us own our own homes, that’s probably being generous.

Most carers are on very near to minimum wage.

That’s £338 a week for a 40 hour week.

I can assure you now, through talking to my colleagues that nearly all of them are in a position where they only earn a fraction more than they would on benefits (if they have kids, which most do).

It’s a very very easy job to give up for most of my colleagues.

The reason I mentioned owning a home is because the benefits system works a lot better for renters than owners.

@rawlikesushi You’ve made some assumptions that are not accurate. Neither I nor friend believes that the vaccinated friend who then got covid somehow manufactured it from within her body as a result of having the vaccine. The most likely scenario is that this woman was exposed to covid via her job as teacher but got it asymptomatically so did not isolate, then became a super spreader.

Second it is naive in the extreme to believe that all side effects and adverse events will be predicted by manufacturer and thus listed as a side effect in the product info. We know that several things can go wrong here: eg side effect appears in trial but manufacturer dismissed it as unrelated to treatment as they don’t understand the mechanism; side effect is rare so doesn’t pop up in trial but only shows up when larger population gets vaccinated outside of the trial; person outside of trial who has adverse reaction has unusual health conditions or genetic makeup that was not represented in trial, etc etc. The list is long.

I myself had a serious side effect from a drug years ago that a doctor told me with absolute certainty could not be related to the drug cos it wasn’t in the list of side effects. Well fast forward a couple of decades and now that drug has been found to have that side effect.

These kinds of issues are why there is post marketing surveillance on drugs.

If the gov or a care home were to try and get more carers from overseas, chances are, they would be even more unlikely to be vaccinated, as the UK[compared to Europe anyway] has the higher vaccination rate, apparently.

A care home I guess, could pay higher wages to hire vaccinated staff only[if legally they would be allowed to do that] I suppose. Would people who pay care home fees, pay extra for that? Some might, but not that many I would guess?

Doesn't the vaccine only prevent the person concerned getting a bad reaction to the virus rather than reduce transmission?

@Dodododahdahdah

No salary is not particularly irrelevant to this discussion and I’ll tell you why.

In the care home that I work in, only about 5% of us own our own homes, that’s probably being generous.

Most carers are on very near to minimum wage.

That’s £338 a week for a 40 hour week.

I can assure you now, through talking to my colleagues that nearly all of them are in a position where they only earn a fraction more than they would on benefits (if they have kids, which most do).

It’s a very very easy job to give up for most of my colleagues.

Good Morning @Dodododahdahdah. Have you got that Facebook link yet?

YANBU. I would ask if you can have another carer although you may be told that there isn't another one available. It will be hard to enforce the vaccination on those who are already carers but it could be a condition of employment in the future for new carers.

@whymewhyme

What a world we live in when people are being judged and now discriminated against at work for not having the vaccine.

Its her choice, if she doesn't want it for what ever reason it is her CHOICE! She will still be wearing full PPE on shift as will all the other staff. It wont effect the level of care she provides to your mother!

Leave the poor woman alone, if you complaine she will be approached and the pressure will be applied by management and she will be pressured into have it and isnt it awfull that in 2021 our choices and fredoms are being taken away from us.
Her body, her choice!

The vaccine is not manditory in any profession.
And no im not a covid idiot or anti vaxxer.

It is the person's choice not have a vaccine but it's also an employers choice not to employ them. It's not discrimination to not want an employee to infect vulnerable clients.

I’d be worried that someone being that irrational and selfish with regards to the people they’re caring for and their families would be taking more risks generally too and I wouldn’t be comfortable with that.

Perhaps a further shortage of care workers would push up wages. One of the biggest impacts of the Black Death was that the lowest paid workers could suddenly demand much higher wages.

You’re perfectly entitled to tell them that, they’re perfectly entitled to tel you their staffs medical status is absolutely none of your business and refuse to accommodate you.

@Belladonna12 it’s not the employers choice to not employ them due to a medical decision. The employer has zero say whatsoever on their staffs medical choices, and firing someone for refusing a vaccine (and there could be any number of reasons the vaccine was refused, not simply because the employee didn’t want it) is outright wrong. There should never be any discrimination based on vaccines, we even let parents choose whether their children get vital life saving vaccines to prevent diseases that have been every bit as deadly as Covid. We should never move as a society to forcing each other to have medical treatment against our will.

[quote ChancesWhatChances]@Belladonna12 it’s not the employers choice to not employ them due to a medical decision. The employer has zero say whatsoever on their staffs medical choices, and firing someone for refusing a vaccine (and there could be any number of reasons the vaccine was refused, not simply because the employee didn’t want it) is outright wrong. There should never be any discrimination based on vaccines, we even let parents choose whether their children get vital life saving vaccines to prevent diseases that have been every bit as deadly as Covid. We should never move as a society to forcing each other to have medical treatment against our will.[/quote]
Of course it's an employers choice! Not been vaccinated isn't a "medical decision" and is not a protected characteristic. Therefore , it wouldn't be considered discrimination if an employer decided to only employ people who were vaccinated. The only exception could be if someone had a disability that meant they couldn't be vaccinated. Nobody is being forced to have medical treatment against their will because they don't have to do do a job that requires vaccination.

It's not treating a carer like a commodity to ask that my ECV mother in law, with multiple factors that put her at the highest risk and therefore potentially more likely for the vaccine not to work, is looked after by people who put her at minimal extra risk.

She isn't a commodity either. She is not simply a means for someone to earn a living, she is a human being who should be allowed to keep herself as safe as possible.

Life is going to return to some semblance of normality but going about normal life (socialising, travelling etc) unvaccinated is still going to carry a risk of catching and spreading it. This is a personal choice. But if you make the personal choice to risk spreading the disease you have to accept other people's choice not to put themselves/their employees/their patients at risk.

Your body your choice does not mean anyone is required to protect you from the consequences of your actions.

Whatever people's personal opinions on the matter, it will be settled legally one way or the other soon.

It is a tough one but I think ultimately the law will not allow people to discriminate on vax status. Plus, these carers have been an absolute lifeline to people who needed them over the last year, and they have exposed themselves to more risks than most of us by going from one household to another and getting up close and personal to their clients, day in day out. I think developing a bit of a thick skin to the risks is quite a normal reaction for your brain to manage the stress of that. I'm quite uncomfortable with the idea that people who've been through that, and provided all that care when the risks were less well quantified and therefore more scary, could be out on their ear because they won't have the jab.

It is a tough one but I think ultimately the law will not allow people to discriminate on vax status.

The law currently allows employers to choose not to employ someone who is not vaccinated . Do you seriously think that they will introduce a law to prevent that?! If someone has been employed for a long time their employer may need to demonstrate that they are putting vulnerable people at risk but that's not going to be hard to do if it turns out the vaccine prevents transmission. If they have only been recently employed or are on a casual contract employers can hire and fire as they please.

The law currently allows employers to choose not to employ someone who is not vaccinated

Which employers?
Which vaccinations?
Which law?
Which country? The UK?

I'm talking about employment law in the UK and referring to vaccinations for any condition as the same rule applies.

It's sad how people were clapping every Thursday for these people yet the second carers display any autonomy over their own bodies they are cast aside like rubbish.

@Steamedhams

It's sad how people were clapping every Thursday for these people yet the second carers display any autonomy over their own bodies they are cast aside like rubbish.

What about the autonomy of people who don't want to be in contact with someone who isn't vaccinated? Why should they not ask to be looked after by someone who is?

@Belladonna12
I just googled it. Took the first link that popped up
www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/coronavirus-can-uk-employers-require-staff-vaccinated

Not as clear cut as you are saying, by the looks of things.

@Steamedhams

It's sad how people were clapping every Thursday for these people yet the second carers display any autonomy over their own bodies they are cast aside like rubbish.

I think there will be a rapid u turn when people can't get carers.

@Belladonna12
2nd link this one
www.personneltoday.com/hr/covid-vaccinations-ethics-employers/

Indirect discrimination could be an issue too.

Perhaps a further shortage of care workers would push up wages

I’m a carer and so far this hasn’t happened- we’re pretty much forgotten in the healthcare system, like HCPs and cleaners/porters in hospitals.