To insist on vaccinated carers

[Oblahdeeoblahdoe]

One of the carers who goes into my elderly mum has refused the vaccine (she told mum) I'm really annoyed and want to request to the management that she doesn't attend to mum anymore. I feel if she wants to do this job she should have the vaccine in order to protect her clients. I know there's no proof yet it will protect against transmission on but most scientists believe it will. AIBU?

[quote lightand]@Belladonna12
I just googled it. Took the first link that popped up
www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/coronavirus-can-uk-employers-require-staff-vaccinated

Not as clear cut as you are saying, by the looks of things.[/quote]
I'd love to know how you think that it is not as clear-cut! That link states pretty much what I was just saying! I.e. that it may be considered reasonable for an employer to instruct an employee to be vaccinated if refusal could put vulnerable people at risk. If you have been employed for over two years you could go to a tribunal and argue that it wasn't reasonable but you would probably lose . You would also have to wait a year and even then you would only get a year's salary. Good luck getting another job in the meantime.

[quote lightand]@Belladonna12
2nd link this one
www.personneltoday.com/hr/covid-vaccinations-ethics-employers/

Indirect discrimination could be an issue too.[/quote]
Yes, I did say that it could be discrimination if someone couldn't be vaccinated because of a protected characteristic .However, that would be rare and even then employers could still dismiss you. It would just give the person an opportunity to take them to employment tribunal which would take about a year and you don't get much compensation even if they were found to be unreasonable..

I’m a nurse and lm not having the vaccine anytime soon. We are starting IVF very soon, after a few years of struggling to conceive. You are asked to wait for a few months after the vaccine before trying to conceive and l can’t wait anymore. Our fertility issues are more important to me than the vaccine lm afraid. Neither of us are getting any younger and have been more than patient. Work can’t and won’t force me -they know l would get my union involved if they tried. I’ve got nothing against it in principle but now isn’t the right time for me

@Belladonna12

It is a tough one but I think ultimately the law will not allow people to discriminate on vax status.

The law currently allows employers to choose not to employ someone who is not vaccinated . Do you seriously think that they will introduce a law to prevent that?! If someone has been employed for a long time their employer may need to demonstrate that they are putting vulnerable people at risk but that's not going to be hard to do if it turns out the vaccine prevents transmission. If they have only been recently employed or are on a casual contract employers can hire and fire as they please.

@Belladonna12 ... you’re a HCP , as I am( as you’ve told me several times previously) so you will have researched case law and judicial precedent in your own field over the years I am sure, and will know that it differs to Common Law........ this issue is not as clear cut as you suggest ...... so many grey areas..people will very likely argue philosophical ethical beliefs as a case for discrimination under current employment law/equality act 2010.....the barristers will have a field day and be raking It In.... as things go now....it would be a very unwise employer ( in my opinion) who sacks someone or refuses to employ on the basis of vaccination status at this moment in time......although obviously there are indirect ways around this for employers which I’m sure they will look for in the meantime.......anyway they won’t have to wait that long.....look like case law will be ready to be presented to the Supreme Court by end of this year.

Yes.. I have had the vaccination

@EL8888 much sympathy for your situation and the very best of luck with your IVF. It's a brave decision and one I'm sure you haven't made lightly.

@Kitkat151 I haven't suggested that whether someone would win at an employment tribunal is clear cut. My point is that you can't even take an employer to tribunal unless you have been employed for over two years. A lot of care workers are on casual contracts. Furthermore, there is a good chance that you would lose if you took them to a tribunal because as the link demonstrates, employers will have a good case to argue that it was reasonable to sack or redeploy someone if they are unvaccinated and in contact with vulnerable people. It seems to me that the person taking the risk would be the one refusing the vaccination rather than the employer.

@Sadsiblingatsea

The fact that so many people in the medical field are refusing this vaccine tells you everything. How is it even legal to pressurise underpaid workers like carers to have a medical procedure they don’t want?

No, this does not 'tell you everything'. There are lots of staff in the NHS who are not medically trained (cleaners, receptionists etc)- all very valuable members of staff and am not trying to put them down but there is not evidence that droves of medically trained professionals are turning it down (the vast majority are accepting it). Similarly, it depends on training of carers but I doubt the vast majority of carers have a medical background in epidemiology. Again, not trying to put them or their training down, but 'the medical field' is a very broad term. Most doctors and nurses are very much in favour of the vaccine and are receiving it if offered and medically able to do so.

[quote Belladonna12]@Kitkat151 I haven't suggested that whether someone would win at an employment tribunal is clear cut. My point is that you can't even take an employer to tribunal unless you have been employed for over two years. A lot of care workers are on casual contracts. Furthermore, there is a good chance that you would lose if you took them to a tribunal because as the link demonstrates, employers will have a good case to argue that it was reasonable to sack or redeploy someone if they are unvaccinated and in contact with vulnerable people. It seems to me that the person taking the risk would be the one refusing the vaccination rather than the employer.[/quote]
Did I mention employment tribunals🤔....no I don’t think I did. They won’t be the game changers........Case Law will be...,,

People will get serious backing behind them to enable them to go all the way to the Supreme Courts with the intention of getting judicial precedents set.......How many employers do you actually know who have openly sacked anyone or refused them employment based on Covid vaccination status or vaccination preferences up to now??

@Kitkat151
Quite

@Belladonna12 but you would probably lose
ok then. I see you are not a barrister, but you seem to know best anyway. ok. Well not, actually, as you are giving poor advice at best. That is not really an ok thing to be doing to people.

ok then. I see you are not a barrister, but you seem to know best anyway. ok. Well not, actually, as you are giving poor advice at best. That is not really an ok thing to be doing to people.

I was debating not giving advice ? Are you a barrister? If not, in what way are you qualified to advise that what I am saying is "poor advice."

Anyway, here is a link to a barrister talking about this and they say what I just said.

You do realise it was on a thread I started in legal matters, that that video was posted?!

I will leave you to things.

He states that NHS trust or a care home would have a strong defence if you took them to the tribunal for unfair dismissal. He also states that it could take a year to get the tribunal and in the meantime you would be unemployed, unless you can get another job. You also can't take employers to tribunal's unless you have been employed for over two years.

@lightand

You do realise it was on a thread I started in legal matters, that that video was posted?!

I will leave you to things.

Did you actually watch it though.

@Oblahdeeoblahdoe

Yes, mum has had her first dose of the vaccine. I was not thinking of naming and shaming but saying that we only want vaccinated staff to go into DM. It's very close up, personal care and DM has made a lot sacrifices to protect herself against the virus.

Yet she’s had unvaccinated carers for the last 11 months 🤷‍♀️

I think in the absence of a clear medical reason not to get the jab, it's really irresponsible not to. Mainly its ill-educated people with notions that are not based on anything but rumour and internet nonsense. I think we should stop the understanding and gentle encouragement and make people realise that it's irresponsible - same as those who refuse to wear masks or socially distance. It should be taboo to say no to it if your doctor doesn't have a good reason for you not to get it. I would feel exactly the same as you - YANBU

@VinylDetective well yes she has. Thus the sacrifices being made. Why would you want to continue to lock yourself away from the world because your carer didn’t want to vaccinate? Absolutely the carers choice to not do it, and it should be OP mother’s choice to say thanks but no thanks, I don’t want to expose myself to you.

[quote fruitandflowers]@VinylDetective well yes she has. Thus the sacrifices being made. Why would you want to continue to lock yourself away from the world because your carer didn’t want to vaccinate? Absolutely the carers choice to not do it, and it should be OP mother’s choice to say thanks but no thanks, I don’t want to expose myself to you.[/quote]
I’m getting vaccinated for my own protection so I can safely be exposed to anyone, regardless of whether they’re carrying the virus or not. There seems to be a lack of understanding about what vaccination is actually for.

OP how can you say that every carer that doesn't have the jab is anti vaxx ? .I have worked in care ( community) plus ald for a number of years. The thing is it is pcp personal centred care therefore the wishes of the individual are always observed , obviously within reason and capacity.
So a person can refuse the jab but still expect care and they would recieve it because it would be deemed discrimination to refuse them care because of a choice they made. Do you see where I am going with the. Carers equally have the same right to refuse the emphasis is on the right to refuse .
Care is massively underfunded and stretched to it's limits if you think trying to force carers who refuse then the pool of carers will just get smaller.
I am cev and shielding so I will be having the jab shortly but I do respect that it is a personal decision and tbh you are not entitled to know why a person has refused as it is data protection, medical history like I am sure you wouldn't disclose yours .That might sound if I am defending those who don't want it but it's choice and that is how it is unless it is made compulsory.

I don't know if I've missed it, but should carers, other hcps and anyone who comes into contact with the general public then get to refuse to serve those who don't have a clear medical reason to not have the vaccine then? Because without the apparently proposed/not actually proposed 'passport' how will we know why someone hasn't had it?

Ah and what @vicarofdibley has also said.

@notdaddycool

I believe that whilst you can't make a vaccine a condition of employment you can get round it by saying it's required for your mothers' Health and Safety. So you get the outcome you want but not the obvious way. If they lose their jobs (or more likely lose hours and realise it's going) they will get it done and be fine.

You could try this but I work in community care and you would likely risk the carers saying fine and leaving. There are thousands of care vacancies, it would highly likely backfire.

@VinylDetective
I’m getting vaccinated for my own protection so I can safely be exposed to anyone, regardless of whether they’re carrying the virus or not. There seems to be a lack of understanding about what vaccination is actually for

I have been wondering about this.
I thought, and could be wrong, that a person chooses to have the vaccination. If they were to catch covid, it lessens their symptoms.

Off to google

@Kitkat151 a lot of the younger women in my health board are wary of accepting a vaccine due to nothing being known re fertility. In fact, the information I was provided via a leaflet explicitly said you can have the vaccine & try for a baby immediately however at my appointment the nurse told me I should not try for at least 3 months so I can understand the reluctance and confusion! ( I have no intention of trying for a baby) I also think people need to remember carers and health care staff have been exposed to the virus for almost a year with no protection and now if they dare question a vaccine that they don't know much about they are being painted as selfish. Some of my colleagues have refused the vaccine and imo it is rightly, still a personal choice. It would be great if everyone accepted it, but these same carers etc have been taking all the steps they can to minimise the spread throughout. They are not suddenly more dangerous.

@MichelleScarn

I don't know if I've missed it, but should carers, other hcps and anyone who comes into contact with the general public then get to refuse to serve those who don't have a clear medical reason to not have the vaccine then? Because without the apparently proposed/not actually proposed 'passport' how will we know why someone hasn't had it?

I’m getting vaccinated for my own protection so I can safely be exposed to anyone, regardless of whether they’re carrying the virus or not. There seems to be a lack of understanding about what vaccination is actually for.

NHS and care home staff aren't just being vaccinated for their own protection. If that was the case, then teachers would also have been given priority. Clearly, it is because they are in contact with vulnerable people and it is hoped vaccination will reduce their chances of infecting them.

It could be interesting trying to insist on vaccinated care assistants when there’s already a huge shortage.

www.skillsforcare.org.uk/adult-social-care-workforce-data/Workforce-intelligence/publications/national-information/The-state-of-the-adult-social-care-sector-and-workforce-in-England.aspx

“It is estimated that 7.3% of the roles in adult social care were vacant in 2019/20, equal to approximately 112,000 vacancies at any one time.”

And a turnover rate of 30%