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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be sick to death of male violence against women?!

245 replies

Conkergame · 05/02/2021 18:23

Kilmarnock attacks: Mother and daughter killed and man dies in crash www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-55948245

Just read about the poor mother and daughter killed in Kilmarnock by what sounds like the mother’s husband/partner. When will this stop?! And when will it be taken seriously as the misogynistic hate crime that it clearly is?!

Feeling even more fed up with it than usual as I also had a scary incident this week where I went for a run with a friend in the centre of a city at 6pm and got harassed by a man Angry

I’d been so looking forward to going out, getting some fresh air and catching up with my friend and then some d1ckhead had to ruin it by running alongside us saying “I want sex with you, I want sex with you” over and over again. When I turned to confront him and told him to “shut up and go away”, he turned nasty, raised his hand as if to hit me and said, “you trying to mess with me?” in a really menacing way. I’m mid-thirties and haven’t had to deal with this sh1t in a while but it left me really shaken (we ended up sprinting for our lives and trying to ask for help from a stranger, who just ignored us Sad ) Luckily the weird guy got bored and stopped following us eventually, but who knows what could have happened Sad

AIBU to think there needs to be much more effort made to reduce male violence and harassment against women in the UK?

OP posts:
IWillSqueakAgain · 06/02/2021 00:12

Obama also told boys to use the girls toilets if they felt like it.

I think it often feels like any male who genuinely caringly speaks up about one aspect of women’s rights just turns rounds and massively disregards other just as serious parts in this way. It just shows that they really never get it.

ScienceSensibility · 06/02/2021 00:13

@IWillSqueakAgain

‘There’s political motive to keep the class of women in their place’.

Absolutely. Patriarchal heirarchy can’t remain a heirachry without women being the lower class. Loads of seemingly decent men simply don’t want to risk their position with the class that has all the power. They think they respect women, they don’t do the violence, they are decent men and not like the violent ones. But they have an inherent interest in maintaining the hirachal power structure, so over look the role they play in maintaining it.

This to the power of a million.

This is why NAMALT is such a useless response.

They may not be perpetrating the violence (although it’s odds on they are discriminating against women in some other way but that’s a whole other thread) but they are NOT challenging their fellow men who are perpetuating the tropes about women and punishing them with violence.

Like so many other women, I know in my heart that, if I were to lose my DP, there is not a snowball’s chance in hell I would go looking for another man.

o8O8O8o · 06/02/2021 00:13

@Downton57

Why did he murder them though? If a person is grief stricken I can understand the wish to end ones life, but why take others with you? That's about revenge, and it's far too often the male reaction when women make them angry
I think it's because ultimately he sees them as possessions more than people and he believes that if they do not obey him he has the right to destroy them because he owns them
IWillSqueakAgain · 06/02/2021 00:16

England is worse for male violence and misogyny against women and girls?

We appear to be the only country that is maintaining the legal definition of women and therefore all our legal rights protections.

I don’t think it’s good here by a king stretch but other countries that have already snuck in self id equivalents behind women’s backs don’t seem a better option.

It all feels a bit like ‘we’ll give you one or two rights over here so you don’t realise we’re removing ten over there’. Just in different variations of what we get in each country.

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 00:19

[quote Marinaloves]@redpencil77
Calm down! I was agreeing with you! I am astounded that someone said women need to stand up and men will follow.
What utter shit. As if we haven’t been standing up![/quote]
Ah ok! I thought so! But you know - the medium of type and no facial expressions to go on, and it's past Gremlin-hour...

...good for you. It has to be nothing that detriments those people who rely on us but shocking/unexpected enough to get the point across. An attritive war is more effective than a nuclear one.

Men never stand up and support us unless there's sonething in it for them, and I'm including my own in that

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 00:20

@Bertiebiscuit

Why aren't men so ashamed that women need Refuges from them that they actually Do something about this problem? It defines all women's lives all over the world
Because it doesn't directly impact on them
Marinaloves · 06/02/2021 00:22

@redpencil77
Sadly I agree. I love my dad my brother my male friends.
I don’t think many of them would really stand up for us. Men like the status quo.
And unless they see something happening in front of their eyes, they would rather avoid it.
Though I have learnt the hard way then men will ignore everything that doesn’t directly affect them negatively

ScienceSensibility · 06/02/2021 00:22

I just want to say to IWillSqueakAgain I agree with every single word you have posted on this thread.
I wish there was a fuck off sized LIKE button I could press next to your every utterance.

Can you please stand for something so I can vote for you?

DuchessOfDoombar · 06/02/2021 00:27

@grassisjeweled

Men have it too good to stand up for women.
Too bloody true.

But we also need to face the fact that some women are also too heavily invested in this current system to fight to change it.

Time and again on these boards we have women telling their stories, venting their frustration, being at the end of their tether and there will always be other women coming in to NAMALT and victim blame the woman.

Patriarchy and misogyny are so ingrained in our society that before we even get men to accept the damage and harm being done, we have to get other women to acknowledge it first.

A recent thread on here had grown women gleefully ripping a vulnerable child to shreds in a bid to defend an abusive father, with a blank refusal to accept that the father’s patriarchal behaviour was the reason the child was misbehaving.
One woman even claimed that some children are just born evil and that was clearly the case with this child.

While we have other women willing to go to those lengths to defend men, we have so much further to go to change things.

IWillSqueakAgain · 06/02/2021 00:28

Science

Your post made me think.

As I said up thread my dh is amazing. He understands male violence and misogyny is the problem of all men. He frequently pulls other men up if they make comments about women or similar. Not 100% of the time, but a fair bit, because he accepts that passively contributing is just as bad as the guys making the comments. He’s pulled our girls up before for saying things like dad makes the money, he’s the first to say it’s our families money because I do all the childcare that allows him to work. He really is great.

But I know no matter how comfortable he is at often addressing the behaviour of men around him he would never go and organise and start a movement to teach men not to be violent misogynists. However much he values women, would never abuse them, would frequently pull up other men for doing so, his priority really is me and the girls. While he’s pro women’s rights they don’t really matter to him outside of me and the girls. Without us he’d still be a great guy he’d sign petitions and donate to the right causes and so on. But he wouldn’t make it his life’s work to start up an equivalent to feminism to address male violence.

Which I guess is because as a man he has the luxury of opting out of this stuff. He doesn’t have to make it his life’s worry because his life doesn’t depend on it. No mans does.

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 00:30

@Marinaloves

The problem is. It’s shame That’s how abuse exists Your man there, killed his family. Probably everyone will be SHOCK HORROR. That ain’t the save I know. He wouldn’t harm a fly. Solid as a rock Loved his family. Etc etc It’s shameful to be abused.
Exactly, and half of them will be women shaking their heads and lauding the man.

I was in Boots today getting some meds and there was a woman on an earphone phone in the queue behind me - it was obviously a work call as she was telling them that so and so - a womam's name.- would get back to her.

Then she said, "oh if Fred (wasn't the name Fred) said that and he hasn't got back to you...he does that...he says that but doesn't follow it through..."

I felt like turning round and saying "well if Fred doesn't do his job why is he geting paid his wage". But she seemed like a nice girl and was clearly multitasking a job by taking a work call in a public place and picking up her own meds or someone elses.

You'll bet Fred has knocked off early and - well, not in the pub but clearly not at work as she then said, "you probably won't get him now" meaning Fred.

Yet the woman on the other end of the call could get HER to talk to her about whatever it was. Maybe Fred worked an earlier shift? That's the best reason I could think for why the girl was available and Fred wasn't.

And because bo manager has ever pulled Fred up on this he thinks it's acceptable work behaviour. Doubt it though as if it was a woman boss she would have to have concrete evidence for a disciplinary and if it relied on women's words, unless they were hard nosed, their evidence more than likely would dissolve to atoms. A male boss wouldn't even see a problem, and if that girl went to him to complain of Fred's laziness SHE would get short shrift

IWillSqueakAgain · 06/02/2021 00:32

That’s very sweet science but I’m not very likeable so I’d never get voted in anything. I’m as sweary and abrupt in rl as on here.

I do secretly hope the likes of Janice Turner and other great journalists read what we say here, take the typos out and word most effectively.

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 00:33

@IWillSqueakAgain

Obama also told boys to use the girls toilets if they felt like it.

I think it often feels like any male who genuinely caringly speaks up about one aspect of women’s rights just turns rounds and massively disregards other just as serious parts in this way. It just shows that they really never get it.

Did he? Then he's an idiot. I had to use a males toilet once as the womens was closed and I knew there was going to be trouble as I came out the cubicle as men had come in to use the urinal. I didn't care. If I was in the same situation in the future I would. I can't take my little hose out of my pants on the streets of Hull (random city I heard mentioned on the TV just now) can I?
Marinaloves · 06/02/2021 00:33

I’m always amazed at the amount of women that go along with all the patriarchy crap
I’m seen as an annoying slightly mouthy person who goes on about crap and “oh here she goes again” about the patriarchy. Even my boyfriend made a dig the other day, oh marina why can’t you just let it go!!

I am strong and even I thought I probably should stfu around my boyfriend. He’s probably bored of me going on. And I would consider him on my side in terms of women’s issues.

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 00:35

@IWillSqueakAgain

England is worse for male violence and misogyny against women and girls?

We appear to be the only country that is maintaining the legal definition of women and therefore all our legal rights protections.

I don’t think it’s good here by a king stretch but other countries that have already snuck in self id equivalents behind women’s backs don’t seem a better option.

It all feels a bit like ‘we’ll give you one or two rights over here so you don’t realise we’re removing ten over there’. Just in different variations of what we get in each country.

Not Scotland and NI though. Yet I would have thought that in general, these regions would be more conservative (small c)
redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 00:37

[quote Marinaloves]@redpencil77
Sadly I agree. I love my dad my brother my male friends.
I don’t think many of them would really stand up for us. Men like the status quo.
And unless they see something happening in front of their eyes, they would rather avoid it.
Though I have learnt the hard way then men will ignore everything that doesn’t directly affect them negatively[/quote]
This is why we need female only things like in school when the boys went out to play football when the period nurse came to our juniors late 80s. They didn't need to know, as it didn't directly affect them. Yet I don't know if gurks even get a period talk these days? With no DDs I don't know.

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 00:37

Thats girls not gurks. Maybe time for bed.

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 00:39

@ScienceSensibility

I just want to say to IWillSqueakAgain I agree with every single word you have posted on this thread. I wish there was a fuck off sized LIKE button I could press next to your every utterance.

Can you please stand for something so I can vote for you?

I will vote for you too! I will move to your constituency specifically.

"Hey kids, we're moving. Why, did you say? Well..."

Lavanderrose · 06/02/2021 00:42

There's a heartbreaking and shocking website called Counting Dead Women.

This is absolutely horrific. The ways in which the women have been murdered are extremely violent and sadistic. I noticed that a lot of the woman were murdered by their sons which is awful. Also by their ex partners which goes to show that once a woman has managed to leave the relationship it’s often when they are in the most danger.

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 00:49

Women excusing men's violence are a disgrace to their sex

Longdistance · 06/02/2021 01:05

Yanbu. It make my blood boil Angry
Bloody a typical male violence.

IWillSqueakAgain · 06/02/2021 01:11

I think a lot of it is an age thing.

When I was teen/first year uni student I would have namalt and men are victims too and women can be abusers as well. I wouldn’t have meant to shut any woman down or excuse male violence, I just wouldn’t have understood the difference between class oppression and individual oppression.

My mother was the one who did me the most harm as a kid. She knowingly handed me over to be raped by whichever boyfriend she had at the time. She gas lit the hell out of me and played so many cruel mind games to keep me compliant and silent. She told me this was why she had me and she’d kill me once u was no use to the men she liked (I don’t believe she ever meant that now, it was just a tactic to shut me up, but I believed it at the time and it took a good ten years after the sexual abuse ended for me to understand it wasn’t going to happen).

I spent some time in care and plenty of the boys I knew there had been victims of similar abuse to us girls.

As a teen/young adult I would have heard male violence against women and girls and heard my mothers abuse as invalidated and the experience of my male friends denied.

Because I had zero understanding of the difference between class analysis of male violence against women and girls and how acknowledging that and the effect of the patriarchal hirarchy on that and how it feeds of mvwg to maintain that hirachy doesn’t deny that some women can be as equally evil as men and some males will be as victimised as we are, but that the over arching pattern is men harming women because the have power over us as a class.

I also know I viewed women staying with violent men as shocking. I had modified my own behaviour so much due to the trauma and terror I grew up with that any tiny sign of a red flag sent me running a mile away. I would never have meant to blame any woman staying with a violent man, I understood the social reasons, that so much violence begins during pregnancy, that leaving an abusing man increases the risk of being killed. I knew all that and I understood it on an intellectual level, but on an emotional level I could never get my head round why any woman didn’t spend every waking second assessing risk and moderating themselves to try and ensure safety. I didn’t believe woman should do that at all, I just didn’t see how anyone could live in this world and not desperately need to do that.

I would never have meant any of those thoughts to excuse male violence or to blame women for it. But I don’t think I grew out if thinking that way until I got serious therapy once at uni and until I took sociology classes and women’s studies classes where I learned the difference between assessing class oppression versus individual oppression. Without knowing the difference it’s hard to grasp, especially as we have so much victim blaming socialised into us. And I think people tend to judge others harshest on the things they judge themselves harshly on, and victims blaming ourselves is very normal response and takes time to unlearn.

I can’t for the life of me get my head round any adult woman, especially a mother, still clinging to such an underdeveloped view of their own lives though. Teens/young adults are supposed to be dickheads, then we grow up surely.

MadameBlobby · 06/02/2021 01:17

It is awful. Those poor women. Horrific. The Kilmarnock situ sorry

I find it so depressing how many people though including women will still buy into the “he must have been desperate”/“she must have driven him to it” narrative. It makes me feel physically sick.

And I cannot stand the “murder-suicide” phrase. I can’t really pinpoint why but maybe it’s because it’s putting the murderer on the same footing as his victims and trying to get us to feel sorry for him or as if it’s some kind of pact. Just horrible.

3 children left without their mum and big sister, a woman left without her fiancée and life partner. Awful.

IWillSqueakAgain · 06/02/2021 01:28

Eeek- this will make me unpopular- but the emphasis on male suicide in general really bothers me.

The few studies I’ve seen on women’s suicide rates -which were American I think- show women attempt suicide 3 times as much as men. But as men are socialised to be more violent they use more violent methods of suicide- guns, bridges, cars and so on. Women are more likely to overdose or slit wrists and they leave more room for the last minute mind changes to set in. Yet these stats tend to mean people assume women are just attention seaking because they don’t chose ‘real’ methods to kill themselves.

This bothers me firstly.

But also, I always wonder how many of the male suicide rates is made up by men who first killed their wives or kids. Or how many are men killing themselves while in prison for violence against women and girls. Or because they are facing going to prison for these crimes.

I’m not saying it’s good they kill themselves. It just bothers me massively when male suicide stats are touted as a shocking figure to gain our sympathy when a fair chunk of the numbers might be the kind of men who pose a risk to our lives on a daily basis.

Mittens030869 · 06/02/2021 01:44

** The vast majority of men are decent human beings

‘Are they though? Looking at crime statistics against women I'm not so sure we can say it's a "vast" majority unfortunately...’**

Sadly, I agree. Plus, we have to remember that the male on female violence we hear about is the tip of the iceberg. Most of it goes unreported.

I agree that there are decent men around (I’m married to one and have lovely BILs), but sadly it isn’t the vast majority, I don’t think.

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