Page 3 | To be sick to death of male violence against women?!

Conkergame · 2021-02-05T18:23:11+00:00

Kilmarnock attacks: Mother and daughter killed and man dies in crash [[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-55948245]] Just read about the poor mother and daughter killed in Kilmarnock by what sounds like the mother’s husband/partner. When will this stop?! And when will it be taken seriously as the misogynistic hate crime that it clearly is?! Feeling even more fed up with it than usual as I also had a scary incident this week where I went for a run with a friend in the centre of a city at 6pm and got harassed by a man [angry] I’d been so looking forward to going out, getting some fresh air and catching up with my friend and then some d1ckhead had to ruin it by running alongside us saying “I want sex with you, I want sex with you” over and over again. When I turned to confront him and told him to “shut up and go away”, he turned nasty, raised his hand as if to hit me and said, “you trying to mess with me?” in a really menacing way. I’m mid-thirties and haven’t had to deal with this sh1t in a while but it left me really shaken (we ended up sprinting for our lives and trying to ask for help from a stranger, who just ignored us [sad] ) Luckily the weird guy got bored and stopped following us eventually, but who knows what could have happened [sad] AIBU to think there needs to be much more effort made to reduce male violence and harassment against women in the UK?

wowfudge · 05/02/2021 19:55

@Downton57

Why did he murder them though? If a person is grief stricken I can understand the wish to end ones life, but why take others with you? That's about revenge, and it's far too often the male reaction when women make them angry

I said that to DP earlier. It's about making the woman pay for daring to leave him.

bananamonkey · 05/02/2021 20:03

@Downton57

Why did he murder them though? If a person is grief stricken I can understand the wish to end ones life, but why take others with you? That's about revenge, and it's far too often the male reaction when women make them angry

Because he felt entitled to. Men feel entitled to kill women. I had the same thoughts seeing that story today OP, so depressed for my DDs.

IWillSqueakAgain · 05/02/2021 20:06

Doom- women normally make up 51-52% of the population at any one time. I find it’s an important statistic.

If you’re a man you can’t be a feminist. Feminism is a political movement for the liberation of women, it centres females. You can be a feminist ally, and we need them, but part of that is learning to recognise the harm done to past waves of feminism by centring men and men’s voices, and being aware not to do the same again.

Sex role stereotype socialisation is very very different for males and females, and it has long standing consequences. Even the most well meaning, gentle, respectful man who thinks he’s nothing like the violent ones will have received the same sex role stereotype socialisation the violent ones do. This includes things like putting your voice first, speaking up loudest, centring your perspective, feeling like your entitled to have us listen to you, these aren’t easy to break free from especially when they go hand in hand with how us women were taught to be quiet, to let men speak over us, to defer to your views. Even loud mouthed women like me struggle not to fall back into those roles, it’s unconscious and takes a lot to learn to be aware of it and address it. Which is why men can’t be feminists. And if you want to be a feminist ally you’ll understand that.

IWillSqueakAgain · 05/02/2021 20:08

Positive- it’s great that misogynist was ousted but his replacement has just as serious allegations levelled at him.

IWillSqueakAgain · 05/02/2021 20:11

I don’t think it’s just about making her pay. I agree it’s the entitlement. It’s seeing her as his, as property, so he’ll take her to the grave the same way people used to get buried with jewels or swords.

He’s entitled and she’s property. The fact he’s punishing her and she’ll be feeling the effect of that punishment isn’t half as important to him as the fact she’s just his object so he’ll end her when he wants too.

Doomsdayiscoming · 05/02/2021 20:17

@IWillSqueakAgain

Doom- women normally make up 51-52% of the population at any one time. I find it’s an important statistic.

If you’re a man you can’t be a feminist. Feminism is a political movement for the liberation of women, it centres females. You can be a feminist ally, and we need them, but part of that is learning to recognise the harm done to past waves of feminism by centring men and men’s voices, and being aware not to do the same again.

Sex role stereotype socialisation is very very different for males and females, and it has long standing consequences. Even the most well meaning, gentle, respectful man who thinks he’s nothing like the violent ones will have received the same sex role stereotype socialisation the violent ones do. This includes things like putting your voice first, speaking up loudest, centring your perspective, feeling like your entitled to have us listen to you, these aren’t easy to break free from especially when they go hand in hand with how us women were taught to be quiet, to let men speak over us, to defer to your views. Even loud mouthed women like me struggle not to fall back into those roles, it’s unconscious and takes a lot to learn to be aware of it and address it. Which is why men can’t be feminists. And if you want to be a feminist ally you’ll understand that.

Yes, you are right. Sorry I am still learning.

Yeah I saw that actually the ratio is declining, and now women only make up 50.8% of the population, but perhaps that isn’t voting age. As I assume relatively men’s life expectancy has increased more than women’s over the last 30-40 years.

I completely agree with everything you wrote. I will always be a man, and my only goal in life is to treat my wife with respect, and it shocks me the ways I have not done that thus far. It shames me think of all the unconscious ways I have behaved, but I am trying to think more about my actions, and only this way can I be a better person.

AOwlAOwlAOwl · 05/02/2021 20:18

Yeah I knew instantly what this story was going to turn out to be when I read that a mum and her daughter had been killed in separate incidents. And isn't that the most terrible thing?

And the thing that gets me is that these stories where women are killed by men in what amounts to misogynistic hate crime that the men are never mentioned in the headline. Like the women have managed to get themselves killed somehow. Not that a man has decided that because his wife wants a divorce, or she's left him for another man that he's entitled to kill her.

Doomsdayiscoming · 05/02/2021 20:18

*Wife and all other women

FiFia · 05/02/2021 20:19

What’s happening is incredibly damaging. The people who need to speak out the most & ask for help are losing faith. I once watched a documentary about a young girl who was being stalked & had previously been abused by her boyfriend. She reported him, then police fined her for wasting h police time. Then he killed her. We need to get real about abuse victims.

nocoolnamesleft · 05/02/2021 20:26

We were taking about this at work. It was mentioned that it wasn't being treated as terrorism related. I got some funny looks for pointing out that this was as long as you didn't count extreme misogyny fuelled violence as terrorism, and at the least it should be considered a hate crime.

Rockinmomma · 05/02/2021 20:28

Agree with PP about school age boys. Last year DS age 7 came home really upset, a friend (girl) of his was upset so he gave her a hug. The other boys in the playground called him gay and teased him. 7 year old boys. I was seething inside but made sure my DS knew he was a good friend to give his upset friend a hug and that’s what he should always do (I also added there’s nothing wrong with being gay either )
It does feel like a never ever ending fight, sometimes I just want to stand in the street and scream!
I’ve explained to my DP how it feels to be a woman, we were discussing mixed sex toilets him being ok with it. Of course he is, he’s 6ft 4.... no risk of him being raped!

HitchFlix · 05/02/2021 20:28

The vast majority of men are decent human beings

Are they though? Looking at crime statistics against women I'm not so sure we can say it's a "vast" majority unfortunately...

MadamBatty · 05/02/2021 20:34

I’ll dig out the details of a campaign here on Ireland ‘my name was Clodagh’. Her husband killed her & their 3 boys. All initial news reports concentrated on what a lovely man the murderer was. No mention of Clodagh except as the mother of the boys.

IWillSqueakAgain · 05/02/2021 20:36

I don’t think shame has any place in it doom, at least not if there’s no intentional abuse.

People get caught up in shame and guilt and whatever and use it as a road block not to face the reality and avoid being responsible going forward. It’s easier to open your eyes if their not blinkered by shame.

My dh is incredible. Really sweet and gentle and respectful and understanding. But I’m sure there’s plenty times he hasn’t pulled up every guy he knows on the every day lower level misogyny like guys at work making comments about some insta model in bikinis or whatever. He’s not perfect, he doesn’t dedicate every second of his life to addressing male violence and misogyny. But he gets that it is men’s problem to address. I think that’s the important distinction. There’s the supposedly nice guys who will let bros at work off when they make a rape joke or whatever because they don’t think it’s their problem, they would never make that joke so they see themselves as not being responsible. It’s when they deny their part in that there’s a problem. My dh would pull them up plenty, but I’m sure that at some point he has let it slip. But it’s not because he doesn’t think it’s his problem. Recognising and accepting that male violence is the problem of men is the most important part of addressing it. And the not all men are like that rhetoric gets in the way of that. Because actually all men CAN be like that, because you are always the class that has power over women. Learning to be vigilant not to misuse or abuse that power is no doubt a life long thing. But it’s also a luxury afforded to you because you are always in the position of having power over women. And it’s not much of a task when the comparison is us women fighting every day not to get raped or murdered or harmed by men in some other form. You all hold both systematic power over us and literal physical power over us. Teaching other men not to misuse that just has to be men’s job, not ours.

ParadiseIsland · 05/02/2021 20:40

@IWillSqueakAgain

Doom- women normally make up 51-52% of the population at any one time. I find it’s an important statistic.

If you’re a man you can’t be a feminist. Feminism is a political movement for the liberation of women, it centres females. You can be a feminist ally, and we need them, but part of that is learning to recognise the harm done to past waves of feminism by centring men and men’s voices, and being aware not to do the same again.

Sex role stereotype socialisation is very very different for males and females, and it has long standing consequences. Even the most well meaning, gentle, respectful man who thinks he’s nothing like the violent ones will have received the same sex role stereotype socialisation the violent ones do. This includes things like putting your voice first, speaking up loudest, centring your perspective, feeling like your entitled to have us listen to you, these aren’t easy to break free from especially when they go hand in hand with how us women were taught to be quiet, to let men speak over us, to defer to your views. Even loud mouthed women like me struggle not to fall back into those roles, it’s unconscious and takes a lot to learn to be aware of it and address it. Which is why men can’t be feminists. And if you want to be a feminist ally you’ll understand that.

I agree with that.

And it’s heartbreaking when you are raising boys and you realise they’ve still absorbed so much of that mysogynist crap. Despite my best effort.

Original poster

Conkergame · 05/02/2021 20:43

@Bluekangaroo123 I think you’re right about the press. They announce each one like it’s a sad accident or family tragedy. When actually it’s part of an epidemic of misogyny.

And the pp who said it’s a form of terrorism, I completely agree. Makes women afraid to go out alone, to leave their partners, to say the wrong thing to the wrong man. If it were all Muslim men doing the killings there would be outrage, the papers would be calling it mass terrorism and baying for life sentences. But because plenty of straight white, western men are involved, it’s just men who are “misunderstood” or who were “provoked”.

We need to start calling it what it is: a hate crime.

OP posts:

Doomsdayiscoming · 05/02/2021 20:46

@IWillSqueakAgain

I don’t think shame has any place in it doom, at least not if there’s no intentional abuse.

People get caught up in shame and guilt and whatever and use it as a road block not to face the reality and avoid being responsible going forward. It’s easier to open your eyes if their not blinkered by shame.

My dh is incredible. Really sweet and gentle and respectful and understanding. But I’m sure there’s plenty times he hasn’t pulled up every guy he knows on the every day lower level misogyny like guys at work making comments about some insta model in bikinis or whatever. He’s not perfect, he doesn’t dedicate every second of his life to addressing male violence and misogyny. But he gets that it is men’s problem to address. I think that’s the important distinction. There’s the supposedly nice guys who will let bros at work off when they make a rape joke or whatever because they don’t think it’s their problem, they would never make that joke so they see themselves as not being responsible. It’s when they deny their part in that there’s a problem. My dh would pull them up plenty, but I’m sure that at some point he has let it slip. But it’s not because he doesn’t think it’s his problem. Recognising and accepting that male violence is the problem of men is the most important part of addressing it. And the not all men are like that rhetoric gets in the way of that. Because actually all men CAN be like that, because you are always the class that has power over women. Learning to be vigilant not to misuse or abuse that power is no doubt a life long thing. But it’s also a luxury afforded to you because you are always in the position of having power over women. And it’s not much of a task when the comparison is us women fighting every day not to get raped or murdered or harmed by men in some other form. You all hold both systematic power over us and literal physical power over us. Teaching other men not to misuse that just has to be men’s job, not ours.

Yeah shame wasn’t probably the right word.

Do you think men will teach other men? Or you think until that happens it is pointless for women to contemplate a better world?

ParadiseIsland · 05/02/2021 20:48

The vast majority of men are decent human beings

I’m now at the point where I’m not sure about that. A lot of behaviour is unconscious but still looking down at women. As being lesser than.
I see that now as what being a man is about. How they define themselves, in opposition to women.

And seeing half of the population as lesser than or not worth protecting, not even their close female relatives, that’s enough for me to say they are not decent human beings

Bluekangaroo123 · 05/02/2021 20:48

@MadamBatty, this is exactly the campaign I was thinking of! Thank you

Bluekangaroo123 · 05/02/2021 20:49

@IWillSqueakAgain- well said

Scbchl · 05/02/2021 20:49

I live near them and it's just a complete tragedy, poor young girls who now will have a lifetime of heartache.

DimidDavilby · 05/02/2021 20:49

Yesterday a man told me my 8 month old baby daughter was "eyeing him up" and "into men already".

I am so afraid for her.

ilovecardigans · 05/02/2021 20:53

This both enraged and depressed me in equal measure:

twitter.com/bbc5live/status/1356557563169562625

I remember having to put up with crap like this over 30 years ago, when I was a young lass. What is wrong with some men?

MadamBatty · 05/02/2021 21:02

A trailer for ‘Her name was Clodagh’. Her mother & sister speak. It’s heart breaking. Full version for anybody interested on
YouTube

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4u-VjblZWg

PicsInRed · 05/02/2021 21:08

@ilovecardigans

This both enraged and depressed me in equal measure:

twitter.com/bbc5live/status/1356557563169562625

I remember having to put up with crap like this over 30 years ago, when I was a young lass. What is wrong with some men?

The host couldn't even accept that mother's account without throwing out a lovely "some men are abused too" at the end. This is why we are where we are. There's no will to robustly tackle it at the top - including media.