AIBU to think that women should be able to request same-sex provision?

[Glinner]

The tweet below is astonishing for two reasons. First of all, as the poster points out, this is the NURSING AND MIDWIFERY COUNCIL saying that one's sex is 'assigned' at birth. They said this out loud! As part of their evidence to the GRA enquiry!

But aside from that nonsense, what stood out for me was the number of nurses, midwives and nursing associates whose 'gender identity' does not match their sex. 4,484! That seems like a high number, does it not? I wonder how many of that number are fully intact males?

You might remember when Clare Dimyon requested a same-sex nurse to attend her during her mammogram, the NHS responded in the most extraordinary way--they took her name off the letter and published it in official literature as an example of a 'bigoted' request.

One thing for which we should be grateful to Eddie Izzard: Now we are under no doubt that in many cases 'trans' means, simply, 'crossdresser'. Are these 'trans' nurses, midwives and nursing assistants crossdressers? Are women within their rights to request that crossdressing men not be present during intimate exams and so on? If a woman makes this request, will she be committing a hate crime?

Here's the Clare Dimyon story

glinner.co.uk/interview-with-clare-dimyon-mbe/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patient-branded-transphobic-after-asking-for-female-medic-3jh3snddt

twitter.com/Sexnotgender_/status/1357034763039686662

@pumpkinbump

Regardless of whether a man has surgically 'transitioned', they can still abuse a woman in other ways. They are found to have the same capacity for violence/abuse as non trans males. So no, just because you can't be raped because the penis has been removed isn't good enough. Especially when a large majority opt to keep themselves intact.

Genuinely wondering

Are the studies done on TW and the level of rape/aggression etc... by separating TW who have had bottom surgery from those who haven’t/have barely made any changes (bar wearing a skirt)?

My understanding is that those studies looked at all TW who self identified as TW. In which case I’m not surprised the risk is the same.
I was expecting that results would be different for those who went all the way. Happy to be proven wrong if this is the case

At times I prefer to see a female hcp I don’t need to justify why

I work in mh with males at times they prefer to discuss certain issues with male hcp and they are encouraged to tell us (or if we are aware that they may want to we ask them often the answer is yes some men do not wish to speak about erectile dysfunction with a female hcp which is a side effect of a number of antipsychotics)

Paradiseland - fairplayforwomen.com/criminality/

From your link pumpkinbump

Study suggests that transwomen exhibit a male pattern of criminality

mmm maybe because, and I know this will sound absurd, it’s becuase they are male ...

@OhWhyNot

From your link pumpkinbump

Study suggests that transwomen exhibit a male pattern of criminality

mmm maybe because, and I know this will sound absurd, it’s becuase they are male ...

That'll be that funny little thing called evolution.

Indeed so but the issue of competing rights is important.
The right of males to identify as women v the rights of other groups who don’t wish to have males attend to them.
The Equality Act protects sex, gender reassignment, religious views.
Which is most important when they conflict? How to solve this problem?

FFS! Nothing is 'assigned' at birth, it's not a fucking lottery! Just another example of how ideologically captured healthcare is in this country.

As several PP have said, my preference would be female sexed professional, then male sexed professional with chaperone, male born person performing their version of female never. I am not here to validate your identity, especially when I'm the patient and you're the care giver!

The entitlement just blows me away. Who was that trans GP boasting about how female Muslim patients didn't used to let him perform intimate exams, but now he's a she they do? Thinking about those women patients makes me so angry, their dignity and their religious and cultural beliefs overridden to validate the person supposedly there to care for them. I fucking hate it.

@ancientgran what an awful experience for you. I’m sorry you went through that.

@Keeva2017 Thank you. It is weird because I didn't register what was happening at the time I feel horrified that the GP did it but it feels like it happened to someone else in a strangely detached way. It must have been traumatic in its own way as here I am over 55 years later thinking about it. I have mentioned it twice on MN but I've never said it to anyone in person.

’LexxaM

Indeed so but the issue of competing rights is important.
The right of males to identify as women v the rights of other groups who don’t wish to have males attend to them.
The Equality Act protects sex, gender reassignment, religious views.
Which is most important when they conflict? How to solve this problem?’

A woman’s body is not an equal opportunities space and women are not obliged to have a diversity and inclusion policy when it comes to their intimate care.

It may be seen as an extreme point of view in these modern times when the feelings and opportunities of health care providers are regarded as more important than those of the patients but I actually think that men of any variety should be barred from working in maternity or gynaecology in any capacity.

I don’t think a woman should be in the position of needing to ask for same sex nurses, midwives or doctors in woman centred health care. To have to ask will be traumatic in itself for many women.

@Directionerforever

Has anyone tried tweeting *@crouchendtiger* - Andrea Sutcliffe who is the chief registrar for the NMC? She’s pretty responsive on social media.

Good thinking. I might ask her why the NMC report in discrimination didn’t include the protected characteristics of Sex or Maternity.

They included gender - (not legally defined and not the same as sex) and gender identity, (also not a protected characteristic or legally defined).

Do these people have problems with reading comprehension?? A worry considering their role.

I may be missing the point - it has been known - but surely the tweet in the OP is correct, that sex is assigned at birth? In the sense that the baby is designated male or female based on visual inspection and that this is assigned to the baby's medical records? I know that a lot of people find out in advance now, but traditionally the boy/girl decision would only be settled at the birth.

I have just voted (YANBU) and noticed that, at the time of voting, a rather worrying 11% of respondents voted basically that women should not have the right to request same sex provision. Worrying, no?

The thing is, I've skimmed thru the thread and actual replies do not mirror that eleven percent.

So I'm guessing that the "eleven percenters" have no (or very poor) arguments to back up their hatred of women.

Would that be a fair assessment?

YANBU.

Personally, I am happy to be treated by male doctors, nurses, midwives etc. But I know that other women aren't and they should have that right to say no.

Although, thinking about it more... I dont mind being treated by a male, but I want it to be my choice.

Any male that thinks they have the right to do so...I dont want them anywhere near me.

It's a good general rule for life: if a male thinks their right/desire to come near me is more important than what I want, then they are the very last person on this world I want near me.

@TakeTheCuntOutOfScunthorpe

I may be missing the point - it has been known - but surely the tweet in the OP is correct, that sex is assigned at birth? In the sense that the baby is designated male or female based on visual inspection and that this is assigned to the baby's medical records? I know that a lot of people find out in advance now, but traditionally the boy/girl decision would only be settled at the birth.

Not assigned - recorded

That why it's called the baby's records

I may be missing the point - it has been known - but surely the tweet in the OP is correct, that sex is assigned at birth? In the sense that the baby is designated male or female based on visual inspection and that this is assigned to the baby's medical records? I know that a lot of people find out in advance now, but traditionally the boy/girl decision would only be settled at the birth.

What they mean is that the person's "gender", a word which is never clearly separated from biological sex by trans activists, is assigned at birth when actually they may be a different "gender" internally (again never clearly separated from biological sex enough that people fully understand what they mean). Sex is of course not "assigned" at birth, it is determined by the father's gamete that fertilised the ova. Even where it is ambiguous to the doctor, a person is objectively male or female.

Name change

YANBU

I accepted treatment from male HCP when I was in hospital having a major haemorrhage after being raped. It was an acute situation and i barely noticed what was going on around me (apart from many raised voices and panic).

I was offered a female surgeon and anaesthetist when I had my vaginal reconstruction and repair of vaginorectal fistula, but I figured that I would be under anaesthetic, there would be many people in the theatre team and I said I wanted the absolute best surgeon available irrespective of sex. As it happened, the gynae and colorectal surgeons i had were women.

I had a medium term catheter for a while and then moved to intermittent self catheterisation. When I was learning to do this with scarred and distorted anatomy I was always helped by a female nurse, which I requested. I would have refused this from a man, and would have taken the more invasive option of a long term suprapubic catheter instead.

Nowadays I’m happy to see either sex in clinic for check ups and for examination I can manage a man with a chaperone if needed. I would still prefer a woman, but after 4 years of therapy the fear has faded a little and I can manage in the hospital setting.

FWIW when I was initially discharged I had a HomeStart volunteer come to help me bath the kids because even seeing my own (then 5 year old) son naked provoked huge anxiety.

I was very lucky to have excellent support from healthcare and kids school where they were very gentle and listened to me at every step along the way and never forced me to do or accept anything I did not want - even when that meant delaying treatment or compromising on what I felt I could manage.

I am pragmatic enough to recognise that the more restrictions I placed on who I would allow to treat me, the more I might have to compromise in other ways - waiting time, travel to a different unit, operative skill etc. The important thing for me was that I was allowed to make those choices myself without pressure.

@DaisiesandButtercups

It may be seen as an extreme point of view in these modern times when the feelings and opportunities of health care providers are regarded as more important than those of the patients but I actually think that men of any variety should be barred from working in maternity or gynaecology in any capacity.

I don’t think a woman should be in the position of needing to ask for same sex nurses, midwives or doctors in woman centred health care. To have to ask will be traumatic in itself for many women.

What if a woman prefers a male HCP in maternity or gynaecology. I had some issues after my first child, I had a home birth with 2nd and the person I could absolutely trust was my male GP. I had a lovely midwife but she changed jobs, I had a few weeks to meet and know my 2nd midwife and her husband had a heart attack the week before I gave birth. The midwife and her student were lovely but I didn't know them and they didn't know me. My GP was fantastic, he knew me and knew what to say to reassure me. I understand some women don't want to see a male HCP but I don't think you have the right to say I couldn't see my GP.

blueinthesky I'm so glad you were allowed the choice when you needed it. I agree an emergency situation can be different.

Does anyone know what the sex divide is with gynaecologists?

The only thing that I know for sure is that any news item about a bad one I've seen - it's always been a male one.

Of course you'd expect that to be the case if 99% of gynaecologists were men...

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I may be missing the point - it has been known - but surely the tweet in the OP is correct, that sex is assigned at birth? In the sense that the baby is designated male or female based on visual inspection and that this is assigned to the baby's medical records? I know that a lot of people find out in advance now, but traditionally the boy/girl decision would only be settled at the birth.

What they mean is that the person's "gender", a word which is never clearly separated from biological sex by trans activists, is assigned at birth when actually they may be a different "gender" internally (again never clearly separated from biological sex enough that people fully understand what they mean). Sex is of course not "assigned" at birth, it is determined by the father's gamete that fertilised the ova. Even where it is ambiguous to the doctor, a person is objectively male or female.

I think in rare cases it can be assigned. Someone I know (not well, friend of a friend) had a baby with ambiguous genitalia. I don't know all the details, as obviously it was a very private matter, but it was some weeks before it was agreed with the parents and doctors that the baby would be assigned as female and surgery carried out. She is an adult now and considering transitioning.

I imagine it is incredibly rare but I don't suppose it is a unique situation.

Currently it’s 314 votes, 10% have voted YABU. That’s 30 people. 30 people who think women shouldn’t even be able to request this. But no one who has explained why. The fact that there are at least 30 registered users of Mumsnet who believe women shouldn’t even be able to make this request would explain a lot about how certain threads are monitored and reported.

Ancientgran I was not referring to general practice but no I don’t intend to say anyone doesn’t have the right to see his or her GP.

The majority of women are cared for by health care providers whom they have never met before when they give birth in hospital or attend hospital for gynaecological appointments.

I think in rare cases it can be assigned. Someone I know (not well, friend of a friend) had a baby with ambiguous genitalia. I don't know all the details, as obviously it was a very private matter, but it was some weeks before it was agreed with the parents and doctors that the baby would be assigned as female and surgery carried out. She is an adult now and considering transitioning.

I imagine it is incredibly rare but I don't suppose it is a unique situation.

Yes that's what I was talking about in my last sentence. All humans are objectively male or female whether or not their sex is ambiguous to the observer. No one has both sets of working gametes. They will have developed further down one pathway than the other.