AIBU to think that women should be able to request same-sex provision?

[Glinner]

The tweet below is astonishing for two reasons. First of all, as the poster points out, this is the NURSING AND MIDWIFERY COUNCIL saying that one's sex is 'assigned' at birth. They said this out loud! As part of their evidence to the GRA enquiry!

But aside from that nonsense, what stood out for me was the number of nurses, midwives and nursing associates whose 'gender identity' does not match their sex. 4,484! That seems like a high number, does it not? I wonder how many of that number are fully intact males?

You might remember when Clare Dimyon requested a same-sex nurse to attend her during her mammogram, the NHS responded in the most extraordinary way--they took her name off the letter and published it in official literature as an example of a 'bigoted' request.

One thing for which we should be grateful to Eddie Izzard: Now we are under no doubt that in many cases 'trans' means, simply, 'crossdresser'. Are these 'trans' nurses, midwives and nursing assistants crossdressers? Are women within their rights to request that crossdressing men not be present during intimate exams and so on? If a woman makes this request, will she be committing a hate crime?

Here's the Clare Dimyon story

glinner.co.uk/interview-with-clare-dimyon-mbe/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patient-branded-transphobic-after-asking-for-female-medic-3jh3snddt

twitter.com/Sexnotgender_/status/1357034763039686662

@PerfectPenquins

Of course it should be a choice. If you dont care what sex the HCP is then that's fine but some awareness that there are a multitude of reasons why others do wouldn't go amiss. Just because your happy to have a man do any intimate care doesn't mean everyone is. Same with other care sectors, my mother should have the right to have a biological female doing her washing and dressing.

Exactly this. It doesn’t matter if you are fine with a man or a trans woman, it matters for the women who are not ok with it and their rights are not yours to give away.

@DaisiesandButtercups

Ancientgran I was not referring to general practice but no I don’t intend to say anyone doesn’t have the right to see his or her GP.

The majority of women are cared for by health care providers whom they have never met before when they give birth in hospital or attend hospital for gynaecological appointments.

But you did say they should be barred from working in maternity or gynae. My GP (long retired) was the doctor who looked after maternity patients at the surgery, they divided up various clinics. He was kind, caring, sympathetic and knew me well. I think barring someone like him isn't appropriate. I have seen female midwives who were very unsympathetic and abrupt and I would have preferred him hands down.

In my last pregnancy my Consultant was male and very understanding. I made a complaint about his Registrar who was very rude to me when I declined amnio which she insisted I should have due to my age. She even told me I didn't have the right to refuse. So sorry I don't think you can make a decision for all women.

Having said that I have had some fantastic midwives and the female GP I saw when I was bleeding and thought I was miscarrying was everything you could hope for in a very upsetting situation.

It is a shame that the Scottish government supported by many organisations including a rape shelter run by someone who lied about their sex to get the job (but has been allowed to stay even though physically and legally male and NOT a fan of many types of women) DON’T think that rape victims should have the right to request a female examiner to gather evidence of their rape.

It was only down to the enormous hard work of Johann Lamont that Scotgov were forced to change the law to allow women to at least request a female.

I absolutely think women should have the right to choose. I hate smear tests at the best of times and would very likely not do it at all if I had to have a man (however he identified) touching me in that way. My teenage daughters should also have the right to choose.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think in rare cases it can be assigned. Someone I know (not well, friend of a friend) had a baby with ambiguous genitalia. I don't know all the details, as obviously it was a very private matter, but it was some weeks before it was agreed with the parents and doctors that the baby would be assigned as female and surgery carried out. She is an adult now and considering transitioning.

I imagine it is incredibly rare but I don't suppose it is a unique situation.

Yes that's what I was talking about in my last sentence. All humans are objectively male or female whether or not their sex is ambiguous to the observer. No one has both sets of working gametes. They will have developed further down one pathway than the other.

I'm not sure how they decided to assign her female, it was very difficult for the parents as various doctors were involved about which surgery would have the most satisfactory outcome.

Ancientgran the clue is perhaps in your name and the fact that your GP is long retired.

Sadly things are less personal than they used to be and although there is much evidence that having a long term relationship with a known GP and midwife are beneficial this is the exception rather than the rule nowadays. Very few GPs have any involvement in maternity care now beyond an initial appointment to refer to a midwife.

Given that most of the midwives, obstetricians and gynaecologists that a woman will encounter will be unknown to her I propose that the majority of women who have suffered male violence and many who have not will be more comfortable with a female professional and that the number who would prefer an unknown male professional would be vanishingly small.

Of course women should have the right to request a different health care professional at any time without any need to justify it at all, this is basic consent.

I'm not sure how they decided to assign her female, it was very difficult for the parents as various doctors were involved about which surgery would have the most satisfactory outcome.

Yes I can imagine.

@DaisiesandButtercups

It may be seen as an extreme point of view in these modern times when the feelings and opportunities of health care providers are regarded as more important than those of the patients but I actually think that men of any variety should be barred from working in maternity or gynaecology in any capacity.

I don’t think a woman should be in the position of needing to ask for same sex nurses, midwives or doctors in woman centred health care. To have to ask will be traumatic in itself for many women.

I utterly disagree with your first comment. I have seen several exceptional endometriosis specialists and only one is female. It would be a tragedy if the skills of the others couldn’t be used. None of them ever performed an internal examination of me though.

Absolutely women should have the right to choose, and should not be misled or put in a position to refuse care from someone insisting that something untrue is true.

@prisencolinensinainciusol2

I have just voted (YANBU) and noticed that, at the time of voting, a rather worrying 11% of respondents voted basically that women should not have the right to request same sex provision. Worrying, no?

The thing is, I've skimmed thru the thread and actual replies do not mirror that eleven percent.

So I'm guessing that the "eleven percenters" have no (or very poor) arguments to back up their hatred of women.

Would that be a fair assessment?

I've always presumed there's lots of accidental button selection too.

Hence you get threads with severe abuse etc and there'll always be 3 % or more saying yabu (to have a problem with the behaviour).

It is a shame that the Scottish government supported by many organisations including a rape shelter run by someone who lied about their sex to get the job (but has been allowed to stay even though physically and legally male and NOT a fan of many types of women) DON’T think that rape victims should have the right to request a female examiner to gather evidence of their rape.

It was only down to the enormous hard work of Johann Lamont that Scotgov were forced to change the law to allow women to at least request a female.

And it's worth remembering that the above trans individual plus other allies flounced from the SNP and defected to the Scottish Greens because the SNP voted for Johann's amendment to the law to change the word "gender" (ie gender identity and trans women are women so share a gender with female people) to "sex" (biological sex, MTF trans people are male and women are female so they don't share a sex). The Scottish Greens made up the no vote, luckily there aren't very many of them.

In regards to the second is assigned at birth’ comment erm it’s true, medically and biologically speaking we are male or female.

I also wouldn’t of been comfortable with male midwives while I gave birth and it’s something that I expressed both times. Giving birth is something only a woman can do and I think the empathy and encouragement you receive from a midwife is something that comes from personal experience or knowing that one day she’ll feel it to. Might sound strange but no uterus no opinion comes to mind. Of course if there was only males available I would of been fine but preference would always be female.

@DaisiesandButtercups

Ancientgran the clue is perhaps in your name and the fact that your GP is long retired.

Sadly things are less personal than they used to be and although there is much evidence that having a long term relationship with a known GP and midwife are beneficial this is the exception rather than the rule nowadays. Very few GPs have any involvement in maternity care now beyond an initial appointment to refer to a midwife.

Given that most of the midwives, obstetricians and gynaecologists that a woman will encounter will be unknown to her I propose that the majority of women who have suffered male violence and many who have not will be more comfortable with a female professional and that the number who would prefer an unknown male professional would be vanishingly small.

Of course women should have the right to request a different health care professional at any time without any need to justify it at all, this is basic consent.

So you agree that people shouldn't be barred because of their sex?

I think the vanishingly small also count.

Sorry sex is assigned at birth.

@Kitdeluca1

In regards to the second is assigned at birth’ comment erm it’s true, medically and biologically speaking we are male or female.

I also wouldn’t of been comfortable with male midwives while I gave birth and it’s something that I expressed both times. Giving birth is something only a woman can do and I think the empathy and encouragement you receive from a midwife is something that comes from personal experience or knowing that one day she’ll feel it to. Might sound strange but no uterus no opinion comes to mind. Of course if there was only males available I would of been fine but preference would always be female.

I think the nun who was my mother's midwife was unlikely to have given birth or to expect to give birth.

In regards to the second is assigned at birth’ comment erm it’s true, medically and biologically speaking we are male or female.

No, we are male or female in utero, sex may be determined then by chromosome analysis, or observed on a scan. But usually it's observed at birth. Not 'assigned'.

And on the point of the thread, of course YANBU

@ancientgran no people shouldn’t be excluded but being honest do men not realise that woman might prefer another woman while they train for these professions?

I wouldn’t mind a male midwife but I’d certainly object to one who thought that sex is assigned at birth.

[quote Kitdeluca1]@ancientgran no people shouldn’t be excluded but being honest do men not realise that woman might prefer another woman while they train for these professions?[/quote]
I've got no idea, maybe someone should ask them. We also need to remember that some women might prefer a male or not be bothered either way.

YANBU!!!!!!

I don’t think a woman should be in the position of needing to ask for same sex nurses, midwives or doctors in woman centred health care. To have to ask will be traumatic in itself for many women
Precisely! It will get to the point that women are scared to give a preference for being slandered and called a bigot or TERF. This is essentially oppression!
The PP who have no issue with how their HCW identifies, that’s great, you’re using your voice without fear of retribution
But there are many many women and teenage girls who have been assaulted. Why should anyone have to justify their choice? Why should anyone have to talk about their traumatic experience again and again to have their choice met? Why is it a woman’s responsibility to validate an individuals gender? Does a trans woman really need that validation to feel like a woman?

Sex is observed and recorded at birth.

It is fixed from the point of conception by the presence or absence of a Y Chromosome.

With modern biology there should be NO REASON for confusion.
Chromosome testing is not expensive.

I really don't see why some women might prefer a male in that scenario. At a time when you need support, you want someone who can empathise with what you are going through first and foremost. At least know what female anatomy feels like from a personal perspective and be able to relate at least a bit.

Assign is an action, a choice. Observe and record is accurate.

Before this gets sidetracked into complicated Intersex discussions...

In modern healthcare it is my understanding that if a baby has ambiguous genitals and cannot be obviously categorised as male or female at birth, there are a whole battery of tests to establish which of the (sex specific) Intersex conditions apply; these conditions frequently come with other serious health implications that would need to be addressed, as having ie XXY chromosomes in every cell of your body would affect more than your genitals.

No, the midwife shouldn''t assign a best guess and leave you to sort it out later.

Ancientgran you have not persuaded me. I stand by my assertion that in order to prevent further trauma to women who have suffered at the hands of men, midwifery, gynaecology and obstetrics should be professions reserved for women only.

Have any of the 40 ish voters who think that it is not OK for women to request a female HCP explained themselves yet?

"I don't mind who I see" and "what if you were about to die" obviously not counting as a valid explanation. Come on!

Educate me.