AIBU to think that women should be able to request same-sex provision?

[Glinner]

The tweet below is astonishing for two reasons. First of all, as the poster points out, this is the NURSING AND MIDWIFERY COUNCIL saying that one's sex is 'assigned' at birth. They said this out loud! As part of their evidence to the GRA enquiry!

But aside from that nonsense, what stood out for me was the number of nurses, midwives and nursing associates whose 'gender identity' does not match their sex. 4,484! That seems like a high number, does it not? I wonder how many of that number are fully intact males?

You might remember when Clare Dimyon requested a same-sex nurse to attend her during her mammogram, the NHS responded in the most extraordinary way--they took her name off the letter and published it in official literature as an example of a 'bigoted' request.

One thing for which we should be grateful to Eddie Izzard: Now we are under no doubt that in many cases 'trans' means, simply, 'crossdresser'. Are these 'trans' nurses, midwives and nursing assistants crossdressers? Are women within their rights to request that crossdressing men not be present during intimate exams and so on? If a woman makes this request, will she be committing a hate crime?

Here's the Clare Dimyon story

glinner.co.uk/interview-with-clare-dimyon-mbe/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patient-branded-transphobic-after-asking-for-female-medic-3jh3snddt

twitter.com/Sexnotgender_/status/1357034763039686662

I had a man deliver both mine did not even cross my mind that there was an issue.

*such entitlement. Same here MissMarple. Horrific experience.

I think we need to start asking for people who are menstruating and refuse people who are ejaculating as a way to say no to male bodied people.

Then no trans discrimination. But still a way to protect ourself from some of those cross dressers.

(Plus I’m sure men won’t like to be called people who ejaculate either. They might listen to them....

@YouJustDoYou

After a horrible, traumatic experience at the hands of a male doctor and 5 male students during a vaginal exam when I was a teenager, I have always since then requested female nurses or doctors where possible. It's never been an issue at all........but now I'm wondering, would it be these days? :(

Sorry you had to go through this. I hope not but I believe it's going that way, which is why women are fighting so hard at the moment. I'm fucking livid with it all!

What is it about a trans female that you would object to?

Do you mean what is it about a male presenting according to his perceptions of a female that people object to?

Some women have a sense of their nakedness being something they want to keep more private from people of the opposite sex. Some are trauma survivors. Some have religious considerations to take into account. Some object to the idea of being told someone is female when they’re clearly not.

@Moonmelodies

I wonder how someone with a traumatic experience of someone of another race would get on if they requested an HCP of a different race.

You are using race as an analogy. Are you aware that in your analogy, transwomen (as males) would be analogous with the white people, and females (as the structurally oppressed sex class) analogous with the black people?

It's an interesting question. I do think in some circumstances it may be justifiable for a black person to request being seen by a black health care professional. There are studies showing black mothers face a much higher mortality rate even in the UK and that black people are less likely to want the covid vaccine due to lack of trust in the NHS based on experience of racism.

But of course this OP is about whether women should be able to request a female HCP for intimate procedures. Has anyone given a good reason why not that extends beyond either "Well I'm happy for a male" or "what if you were about to die and no women were around"

13% telling me I'm unreasonable to insist a female sticks the speculum up my vagina for my smear. I can assure there is no shortage of female HCPs. Come on, tell me why?

@ParadiseIsland

I think we need to start asking for people who are menstruating and refuse people who are ejaculating as a way to say no to male bodied people.

Then no trans discrimination. But still a way to protect ourself from some of those cross dressers.

(Plus I’m sure men won’t like to be called people who ejaculate either. They might listen to them....

Very good idea, if it weren't for conceding and losing our word. I wonder if the right to choose would be easier if one were paying privately for the treatment.

@JKRisagryff

I don’t know how anyone can say otherwise.

Which is it to be, should a woman who requests a female medic be denied care? Or should she be forced into receiving care from a male-bodied person? This is basically what it comes down to when you’re removing the right to same-sex provision and calling anyone uncomfortable with it bigots. They probably have very good reasons for being distrustful/wary around males.

It would be very nice to be able to say let’s all be kind and get along and sweep all the pressing issues under the rug for now. These are the questions we need straight answers to. No one seems to want to answer these questions as they want to stay woke without having to say out loud, ‘We don’t care about re-traumatising victims of abuse. We don’t care what a woman’s boundaries are. We want women who feel uncomfortable/scared/suspicious around males to put their feelings aside. Males should be allowed to do intimate examinations on uncomfortable/scared/suspicious females to help them feel validated’

This

Of course it should be a choice. If you dont care what sex the HCP is then that's fine but some awareness that there are a multitude of reasons why others do wouldn't go amiss. Just because your happy to have a man do any intimate care doesn't mean everyone is. Same with other care sectors, my mother should have the right to have a biological female doing her washing and dressing.

It might not always be possible in an emergency situation, but there should always be provisions were possible so women can choose the sex of the person who examines them. It shouldn't even be an argument.

"What is it about a trans female that you would object to?"

The clue is in the question. Trans female as opposed to female. You cannot become female. You stay male whatever you do to your body.

Has anyone tried tweeting @crouchendtiger - Andrea Sutcliffe who is the chief registrar for the NMC? She’s pretty responsive on social media.

My three children were not assigned a sex at birth; their sexes were observed.

As for choice: it was hard enough to find any doctor prepared to say he'd attended a home delivery and sign the paperwork, without expecting him to be present as well; they were delivered by midwives. Who were female in each case.

@MissMarpleDarling

I could have had an alien helping me while in labour and wouldn't have cared.

So do you believe women who do care shouldn't have the choice?

I don’t necessarily have an issue with men in midwifery, there are many male consultants after all - my first was delivered by a woman consultant, assisted by a man. I wasn’t concerned.

But we have every right to demand safe space for ourselves at the most vulnerable parts of our lives.

I'm with you. I've been examined or treated by numerous male gynaecologists, my male ob gyn was wonderful, I was treated by male doctors in pregnancy and have also been cared for by male nurses. I don't have an issue (other women might, and they absolutely should have the right to state a preference).

However - and it's a big however - these men were always careful. Especially when performing intimate examinations they always had a chaperone present, and were very respectful of my status as a vulnerable female patient. Were a TW dr/nurse similarly fastidious - which any with an ounce of insight or sensitivity would be - I'd have no problem with that either.

The issue is that, according to TRA rhetoric, they wouldn't be. 'TWAW', therefore my body is expected to provide validation to that identity at the cost of my own privacy, dignity and possibly safety.

Big fat no.

My PAP tests have always been done by women, and oddly enough (perhaps because of precedent)? I would prefer that procedure to be carried out by a female. I wouldn't want a solitary male practitioner performing that test however he identified.

Women say 'No'. Men hear something else. It was ever thus.

I'm with you. I've been examined or treated by numerous male gynaecologists, my male ob gyn was wonderful, I was treated by male doctors in pregnancy and have also been cared for by male nurses. I don't have an issue (other women might, and they absolutely should have the right to state a preference).

The overriding issue is consent. For those who consent to having males perform a medical procedure or examination that’s absolutely fine.

The problem comes with women who don’t consent being labelled bigots etc.

Yes I would be worried that the safeguards in place for male HCP wouldnt be there for a transwoman ‘because she is a woman’.

Not a problem imo if said transwoman has had botttom surgery/hormones that make her unable to ejaculate.
Much more of an issue with people who are basically cross dressers.

YADNBU! How could it possibly be U to say people should have the right to request and recieve care from a person of the same sex? The notion is utterly mad.

What I do think is incredibly U however, is health care proffessionals lying about their sex, in order to perform intimate care on a woman.the alarm bells would be deafening me if that ever happened to me. I’d break the land speed record getting out of there. I couldn’t think of anything more overtly dodgy.

The overriding issue is consent. For those who consent to having males perform a medical procedure or examination that’s absolutely fine.

The problem comes with women who don’t consent being labelled bigots etc.

Completely agree. Hence the remainder of my post.

Regardless of whether a man has surgically 'transitioned', they can still abuse a woman in other ways. They are found to have the same capacity for violence/abuse as non trans males. So no, just because you can't be raped because the penis has been removed isn't good enough. Especially when a large majority opt to keep themselves intact.

Personally I’m happy to be treated by any sex HCPs as long as they’re professional. But I absolutely believe that women should have a choice and should be able to request a natal female HCP if they so wish. Ditto for men who should be able to request a natal male HCP.

fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

The issue for me is choice and the policy in the NHS at the moment is that any woman insisting on a female midwife or nurse for gynae and midwifery is judged to be a bigot and guilty of hate crime. Not sure how this applies to women whose religions who forbid it. Whose rights are paramount in that situation?

@LexxaM

The issue for me is choice and the policy in the NHS at the moment is that any woman insisting on a female midwife or nurse for gynae and midwifery is judged to be a bigot and guilty of hate crime. Not sure how this applies to women whose religions who forbid it. Whose rights are paramount in that situation?

I agree but I don’t like bringing religion into it.

ANY woman should be able to request female only provision regardless of religion.