To ask for help with my 4 year old

[Sunbo]

I have a 4 year old DS who is in trouble at pre school for being disruptive, not listening to the teachers and generally being difficult. He has been there for around 6 months.

Today he was in a lot of trouble because he hit another child and caused them to bleed. I feel absolutely awful about it :( When I spoke to him about it he said he was playing and being a ‘baddie’ so didn’t mean to hurt the other child.

The teachers are getting frustrated with him as he needs constant reminders to behave nicely and sometimes just refuses to listen to them or laughs in their face when they tell him off. They have tried a sticker chart for good behaviour but it’s like he couldn’t care less about it.

At home he can be stubborn and difficult but he does listen when I or my DH tell him off. We follow a ‘positive parenting’ way (Aha parenting if anyone knows it) so we don’t do a naughty step or punishment but set limits and are quite clear about what behaviour is unacceptable. It’s with the idea that children should behave because they want to and know they should rather than because of the threat of punishment.

I have an older DD who is 8 and she has always been as good as gold with no issues so I honestly have no idea where I am going wrong with my DS! I have also tried sticker charts at home but he just doesn’t seem bothered by them. He is quite rigid and when we suggest going out or trying new things he often says no, even though he enjoys things when he does them...not sure if this is relevant. He can be such a sweet and loving boy at times but then other times it’s like he gets taken over with anger and / or silliness and can’t reign himself in.

I have read various parenting books but honestly don’t know what I can do...can anyone help please? Or suggest books or anything that might assist?

Thanks

@MessAllOver I think the vast majority of gentle parents would agree with you. It isn't a case of not telling a child that their behaviour is unacceptable, it's simply how you deliver that message and what your general attitude towards your child is while you're doing it.

@loretta81. In my case, I prefer to deliver the message that hitting, being rough and not sharing are wrong emphatically and with immediate consequences that make an impression on a toddler. My 3yo doesn't understand social isolation as a consequence and, if I let him get to the age where his understanding is sophisticated enough to understand, he will be a very unhappy child with no friends. Much easier and kinder to put some basic ground rules in place to begin with and make life unpleasant for him if they're crossed so eventually he assimilates that acting up really isn't worth it.

@Sunbo You said that your son seemed remorseful about hurting the other child. He may respond very well to praise for good behaviour. I don't mean constantly for everything he does, but last thing at night when you put him to bed, having a little quiet chat, even on a bad day, so you could say something like "Do you know, I was really pleased with you today, because when I asked you to put the toys away/ be kind to your sister/insert good thing you didn't want to, but you did it anyway, and that was very nice. I was so happy"
Or "I was very pleased today when Sue at nursery told me how hard you tried to do as she asked you. I'm going to phone Grandma/Aunty/someone he loves, to tell her what a good boy you are."
Something that worked with my youngest son was "Do you know, I've been very silly. I told Sue that you couldn't sit down when she asked you because you're only little and you don't really understand, because you're only four. And she said that you're much bigger than that, you're four and a half! And when I looked at the calendar I realised she's right! I've been thinking you're only four, and you're not! You're four and a half already! Silly Mummy!"

Hi @Sunbo there's lots of good advice on here. Of course it's worth remembering that we all parent differently, there are as many different ways to parent as there are children! What works for your DD might not necessarily work for your DS.

Do you ever ask your son to apologise for his behaviour? Just something we have always done, so if my DS has whacked his sister I ask him to apologise. And I don't accept a one syllable "sorry" spat out. He has to say what he is sorry FOR. Which usually leads to a bit more for him to think about, and a better apology. So at the very least we get "Im sorry for hitting my sister" but usually, as he got older now, we would get "Im sorry for hitting my sister, I was angry and I didn't mean to lash out" and then sister usually gets an apology. I'm very firm on this. I hold eye contact whilst I ask him for an apology, he apologises, then he gets a cuddle from me and "that's good, thanks for apologising". It's worked for us over the years as naughty step/sticker charts etc never did. It has taught both of our kids to consider the behaviour they are apologising for as well as the person they are apologising to.

I think this sort of parenting can (sometimes) work for a first child in a home environment, where the entire world revolves around them, but in a preschool environment, school, or with siblings, it's often just too weak and risks putting other children at risk (emotionally if not physically?

Op, you've mentioned both your son being really well behaved at home, but also that he gets angry, throws things, hits and shouts at his sister and destroys her things. All with no consequence save for her not wanting to play with her brother. And your proposed solution is to give him more attention. What message does that give to your poor daughter? That her needs don't matter? Her need to be safe doesn't matter? That no one is going to protect and look out for her? And that bad behaviour gets rewards? It's grossly unfair, and an approach which lets her down.

It also let's your son down, as he needs to learn proper boundaries.

Nanbread

Ok,

I dont assume all aha parents/children are like this. I did say a few pages ago that I'm not sore if it was just a coincidence or not that the two aha mothers I'd met made life very difficult.

The issues with the mother of 'Francesca' had been going on for years. Small at first . She'd ask things like why her child was crying on the floor at pick up 'I would say she refused to listen I asked her to sit down to calm down and she began tantruming' she spent a lot of time over the first few years 'teaching' me about aha parenting and the belief.
I told her nicely I could not implement the same approach in our sports class as I had not the time to do that for each individual child etc. But she need not worry I am trained in child protection, first aid am fully vetted,years of experience etc.

(Long story as short as I can make it,sorry)
Child didn't show up for two weeks of class.
I had to contact both weeks to ask why and was told Francesca simply chose not to go and mum respected that. Ok,no problem.

(Sidenote)
Her and other aha mum had made several complaints about me to the venue we trained in saying they suspected I may be emotionally abusing the children and trying to 'exert my power over them in a forceful manner' (the actual words on the formal complaint) I'd had several classes where the safeguarding person from the community centre came to sit in and take notes on me

Anyway
I told her on the phone that sadly because of her absences francesca would not be able to complete at the next competition in two weeks time as she had missed out on what the other children had learned and I could not take time out from the class to teach Francesca what she had missed.

Mum went mad,had her friends calling me saying it was mean and I wasn't a nice person bullying and disappointing a child??!

I shouldn't have but, I backed down a bit and
I told mum daughter could compete in the solo event only but could not participate in the team event for reasons stated before.

She sent me links to aha parenting guidelines and told me she doesn't know how to explain my actions to Francesca without hurting and confusing her further??! This woman really believed I was messing up her whole way of parenting and her child ...by not listening to her.

The following week child came to class I was handing out the special costumes I had made for the kids and gave Francesca hers.
But reminded her she didn't know what we were about to practice so she could practice her solo to the side...with another two children who weren't competing. She cried and I got down on her level and gave her a hug and said I was sorry but she will be with us all at the competition.
She asked to go to the bathroom and I didn't see her again.
Venue manager said she and mum had left (her mum waits in the coffee shop in the building)

A few days later I had a call in the morning from someone at the school the child goes to...telling me about a serious complaint made about me relating to child abuse.
My legs went from under me. I couldn't fucking breathe.
She told me police were not arresting me but I was to come to the school later that week to meet with social services and a police man.
I couldn't understand I was shaking and crying.

Probably one of the worst moments of my life.

I asked the school if I could come to see them now they told me no..not without a protection officer???? It was hell. I called everyone I knew for advice. I was distraught.

I went to the school when asked and was told the accusation was that I bent down to the childs level..picked her up by her shirt..put her against the wall and told her 'nobody likes you, now get out if my class' ...even writing it makes me feel sick. Im holding back tears now.

It was horrendous I tried to stay calm but I howled crying in that school office. Even the police man looked concerned for me, I was gagging and shaking repeating 'I dont understand. I love those children''

I was told they have to treat it as the child is telling the truth but they could see I was upset and to go home and wait for a call.
Nobody called ...for weeks.
I fell into a short depression ..afraid to leave the house. I had begged the centre for the CCTV footage of the sports hall but they said it was just for show and didn't work...

I wrote emails and called the school and police who said they couldn't tell me anything yet.
Til one day...the secretary of the school picked up and said 'I'm sorry did social services not tell you,the case was dropped last week,they felt Francesca was being coached by her mum to say she felt abused,excluded,unwanted and not listened to etc.

This woman was (I think) breaking the law by telling me this but she was shocked at the state I was still in and also knew 'what this mum could be like' ...The child had seemingly admitted to social services that her mum just kept embellishing things and sayin things to her like ''did she come at you .?.. did she scare you ? ...was her voice loud..?and the child went along to appease the mother...apparently.

Before anyone goes off on me ,I did not tell this story to say that this is what aha parenting will result in!!. Not at all!

Different approaches work for different kids and this woman was clearly just a crazy nut anyway,regardless of her parenting techniques!

But in the end the child (and others)suffered because a parent couldnt teach/implement basic social rules and felt anybody who did was damaging their child.
Francesca is now 19, I never had her in a class again and her peers tell me they run from her like the plague.
She cant take criticism,wont be told no and lashes out when she like.
Though mum says on social media that shes the 'light in her life' and a 'credit to her' . Sigh..

I do feel so sorry for her as her mother created a monster.

But when I see them around I want to scream at them, for what they out me through.
Of course I just hold my head up and walk by.

Once again this isn't aimed at the op!!!
It was just two posters asked me to elaborate.

Sorry for the essay!😅

Sorry!
Francesca is now 9!!!! Not 19!!!

Also I should add..if any of that is confusing...the reason why the school called me first was because they're the people who contacted me initially to see if they could send some of their 'after school kids' to my class in the centre.

It wasn't the mum who signed Francesca up for my classes.
It was a partnership with the school..

Yes, there is so much misunderstanding about what gentle/positive parenting is.

One problem though is that just as it's misunderstood by people who don't follow it (who often seem to think it's no boundaries/life revolves around the child) it can also be misinterpreted by people who think they are following it.

If you do gentle/positive parenting right, then there are absolutely boundaries, although I do think a fair criticism of the method is that a lot of resources about it don't specifically address how to set boundaries - there is a lot of reassurance that boundaries are involved, but confusing guidance on when it's appropriate to set them. Some sites/books seem to advocate waiting until it's really necessary ie you are absolutely at breaking point, which is really poor advice, because in practice, if you're at breaking point, you are NOT able to set boundaries consistently or calmly. You will likely scream and shout and maybe even lash out instead. In reality the point at which you set the boundary needs to be well inside your comfort zone. Just like safety - you would not let your child teeter on the kerb of a busy road. You would have them holding your hand, the hand which is the opposite side to the road, and you'd be walking some distance from it yourself. This way it's easy to keep calm if they trip or struggle or complain about holding hands, whereas if they were already on the kerb, and they tripped over or decided to run in the wrong direction, it's too late - they are already in danger.

Others just never really mention it at all apart from to tell you how not to set boundaries (no punishments, sometimes no curtailing children at all) which is spectacularly unhelpful if your child doesn't respond to gentle reminders or being led gently by the hand away from whatever it is they're not supposed to do. Or if endless redirection/distraction doesn't work.

Some specifically discourage conflict, as though conflict is the problem rather than certain types of or approaches to conflict being a problem.

I think some of this stems from the issue that (According to Ross Greene) most parents tend to err or fall on the side of too authoritative, too strict, too quick to punish or criticise, etc. If this is you, then the guidance from most positive or gentle parenting resources will likely work very well for you, because if your current slightly-too-authoritarian parenting isn't working or is damaging your relationship with your children, what you need is tips and tricks on how to tone that down and a reminder/eye opener that often something like problem solving can work just as well (often even better) than punishment. And likely when gentle/positive parenting was a brand new thing or not very well-known, this was 90%+ of parents who followed the method and so it was a perfectly reasonable assumption to make.

But now gentle/positive parenting is very popular, and this original theory misses a significant minority of parents who tend to err too far on the side of permissiveness, perhaps who are conflict-avoidant in relationships in general, who struggle with their children being upset, even if it's necessary/normal, or who may find the concept of authority triggering due to an abusive childhood. These parents might be a minority, but they do exist, and furthermore they will tend to be drawn to the description of positive or gentle parenting, because of the promises of lack of battles, because they feel anxious about implementing punishment, and like the promises that parenting is possible without. So I think in these days, when information about different parenting styles is easily available online, you probably have a much higher percentage of these parents following gentle parenting, maybe more like 20% or even 30%.

To further compound all of this, some of the websites and books and so on are likely actually written by parents in this latter category! And so you get a further "concentration" of the idea that anything that could possibly be construed as negativity or punishment or disapproval is bad, when this is never quite what was meant in the first place.

(Sorry OP - I don't know that this is relevant to you specifically, it's just the wider discussion - bit of a derail, really.)

The thing is that "Francesca's" mum clearly didn't have problems exerting boundaries! She didn't mind exerting boundaries on people she felt were encroaching upon her child so I don't think a case of a typical too-permissive parent latching onto gentle parenting because they think it gets them off the hook - something different.

This kind of parenting style is known as "Lawnmower parenting" IIRC or was it "Steamroller"? - someone who will go out of their way to remove any and all obstacles for their child in order that their child never experience disappointment, frustration and so on. It's been studied because it's a newer phenomenon (although it must have always existed it's just perhaps it wasn't so common/outsiders didn't pander to it before?) and found to be damaging to the child, which is quite sad.

This kind of parenting style is known as "Lawnmower parenting" IIRC or was it "Steamroller"? - someone who will go out of their way to remove any and all obstacles for their child in order that their child never experience disappointment, frustration and so on. It's been studied because it's a newer phenomenon (although it must have always existed it's just perhaps it wasn't so common/outsiders didn't pander to it before?) and found to be damaging to the child, which is quite sad

Indeed. This is terrifying to read.

I think its evident Francesca's mother had many issues. As I said it wasn't aimed at the op or aha parentsin genral. It was just one of the first Instances I had heard about these kinds of parenting.

I've never naughty stepped, but I do remove privileges such as TV / iPad. This is my last resort and very rare, but I don't give in or go back on it ( even though it punishes me too ) I have probably done this 4 only times. I give warnings. I try to model expected behaviour, but I'm
Happy to say NO. I would say NO hitting. I don't believe you can positive your way around some things. Kind hands is meaningless.
The accident today could of been an accident. Not sitting and listening is a different thing and some children just can't do this yet. I have a gentle boy and he was terrible at preschool at sitting still. It will come.

Laughing in "teachers" faces you need to speak to him about respects and people's feelings. I don't think 4 is too young. If he is rude to you do you ignore it ? There are some flaws to post I've parenting.

There are some flaws to post I've parenting = positive parenting

What are you scared of by deviating from your parenting style, OP? I'm not being unkind, just observing that it seems a bit like this isn't natural to you so you're relying on books to guide you on how to parent this way? It seems as though it's not really suiting anyone, least of all your son and the children in his preschool. What frightens you about trying to incorporate other methods of parenting?

@BertieBotts very well put. Misunderstanding of pp by parents and others is often at the root of people's perceptions of peaceful parenting allowing bad behaviour or entitlement. Interestingly when I observe friends/people who I think parent well, they seem to do pp naturally ie it's not a Thing to them, but just how they choose to engage with their kids - and have lovely kids as a result. I've had to learn this approach, and it feels right but it's hard too, when my instinct is to shout. I have seen permissive parenting too (and done it myself on occasion, and then realized) - at it's worst bits very cringe to listen to 'oh you're feeling sad because you hit Johnny and his tears upset you? Have some crisps and a hug darling'. But that is not peaceful parenting!

I'm so sorry if this has been addressed but I have read all your posts and can't see it. How does he sleep?

I was once told by a health visitor that she believed almost all behaviour issues in children were caused or significantly exacerbated by tiredness and addressing the sleep was the single most important thing to do.

It's probably scared you now OP.

If I was at your nursery school and I had a child who wasn't listening and not responding to our systems I'd suggest:

A chart where we coloured in a 'ball' for every successful session. For every session he'd earn 5 min doing something special each night with parents. He's not interested in pre schools rewards so it needs linking. Something like playing with slime, but it needs your full attention each night.

@withinacceptabletolerances

I'm going to go against the grain here - I don't think he needs firmer boundaries I think he needs his self esteem raising. He's playing a baddie? He gets pulled up all the time for his behaviour? I think he's decided he's a naughty boy and he's fulfilling that. My boy was exactly the same and pre-school and reception treated him like a naughty boy who just needed more and more and more boundaries. Until we called them out and they admitted they'd not got any more ideas. Long story short he was diagnosed with ASD (PDA) and sensory processing disorder. We read Ross Greene's Explosive Child and followed his CPS model and it changed our life. He's 7 now and calm and thriving at school. Go with your gut and if it's a gentle approach that works at home, then discuss that with school. He's not defiant, at 4 he's just probably an anxious baby. Hugs xx

Wholeheartedly agree.

At home he can be stubborn and difficult but he does listen when I or my DH tell him off. We follow a ‘positive parenting’ way (Aha parenting if anyone knows it) so we don’t do a naughty step or punishment but set limits and are quite clear about what behaviour is unacceptable. It’s with the idea that children should behave because they want to and know they should rather than because of the threat of punishment.

So you have an admittedly difficult child, who quite clearly doesn't have any consequences for his actions.

You need firmer boundaries. Attachment/natural/positive parenting etc does not mean no boundaries or respect

I was your son. Different gender, same issues.

Explaining and 'morals' didn't work at all for me, by the time my parents were half way through explaining I'd stopped listening and was off somewhere in my own head. All I heard after the first 30 seconds was blah blah blah. Toys removed, activity stopped etc. But I knew how to react to get them to shut up and 'forgive' me - say I was sad and sorry and knew what I'd done was wrong. If I thought it was necessity I could cry for effect. And hey bingo cuddles and it was all forgotten. I knew there would be other toys and activities. I was probably bored with them anyway. And off I'd be to do something else impulsive and 'bad'.

I would also say that my parents biggest mistake was assuming that what had worked so well for my older sister would have the same effect on me. I was totally different, not some clone. They keep preserving with what worked with her and when it didn't work with me it really set the dynamic of her as the good one and me the bad because they were so confused and disappointed. I worked that out by about 4 too. Made me think it must be me. I was wrong somehow. Took me years to realise I wasn't wrong, I just needed some different from my sister. I needed treatment tailored for me, not her.