To ask for help with my 4 year old

[Sunbo]

I have a 4 year old DS who is in trouble at pre school for being disruptive, not listening to the teachers and generally being difficult. He has been there for around 6 months.

Today he was in a lot of trouble because he hit another child and caused them to bleed. I feel absolutely awful about it :( When I spoke to him about it he said he was playing and being a ‘baddie’ so didn’t mean to hurt the other child.

The teachers are getting frustrated with him as he needs constant reminders to behave nicely and sometimes just refuses to listen to them or laughs in their face when they tell him off. They have tried a sticker chart for good behaviour but it’s like he couldn’t care less about it.

At home he can be stubborn and difficult but he does listen when I or my DH tell him off. We follow a ‘positive parenting’ way (Aha parenting if anyone knows it) so we don’t do a naughty step or punishment but set limits and are quite clear about what behaviour is unacceptable. It’s with the idea that children should behave because they want to and know they should rather than because of the threat of punishment.

I have an older DD who is 8 and she has always been as good as gold with no issues so I honestly have no idea where I am going wrong with my DS! I have also tried sticker charts at home but he just doesn’t seem bothered by them. He is quite rigid and when we suggest going out or trying new things he often says no, even though he enjoys things when he does them...not sure if this is relevant. He can be such a sweet and loving boy at times but then other times it’s like he gets taken over with anger and / or silliness and can’t reign himself in.

I have read various parenting books but honestly don’t know what I can do...can anyone help please? Or suggest books or anything that might assist?

Thanks

I agree with the too much explaining not working for him....my bf followed a positive parenting approach and very not naughty step ...I was somewhere in between but had it more as a calm down place as things not working out.
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Simple communication is better ...expectations of behaviour and response are often driving unwanted behaviour by accident..
He may just need clearer shorter statements of what he needs to to/not do.....theory of mind often doesn't kick in until much older

Her daughter responded well to 123 magic approach...when she struggled at social events..

He doesn’t sound that well behaved at home if he’s destroying his sister’s things tbh. You’re lucky he is old in the year as many children his age would already be in school and having to deal with a more structured environment.

I do think 4 can be tricky though. We get a lot of emotional outbursts from our 4yo. She is perfectly behaved in school but is a bit stroppy for us. They are still little and learning what is and isn’t ok.

My DS 3.5 is also in trouble for behaviour at school. I try to follow gentle parenting ideas however I do use the 'naughty corner' if a behaviour continues. For example hits his sister, I say we don't hit, gentle hands, remove her, apologise. If he does it again he goes in the corner. Sometimes it's the only way for him to see I mean it.
If he throws toys, hits with them etc they get removed for the day in 'toy jail'.

He is being assessed for sensory issues but I'm not sure how much the hitting relates to that

@Sunbo your method of parenting would have seemed to have worked with me when I was a child, because I was just naturally well behaved. It wouldn't have worked with my brother, who was a lot like your son. In my years as a parent to four children, and as a childminder and foster carer, my approach was much more like that of @MessAllOver, and in fact children who were perceived as difficult at home were fine in my house. I set boundaries immediately, and was consistent in my approach. (Eg. "You do NOT climb on my dining table, because you will damage it. You sit here and play with this , here, with me". ) I rarely had a child display difficult behaviour, to be honest, after the first couple of days, when naturally they were trying to work out what the boundaries were. Once they knew, it was as if they relaxed, and could get on with their job, which was to play and enjoy their day.
I think children feel safer when they know that there are boundaries and what they are. They need to feel that the adult is in control, and can be trusted to always be consistent. They need to feel loved, no matter what their behaviour is like, but they need to know that their adult is disappointed and upset if they really behave badly. When your child hurts someone else, you need to be saying something like "Sue told me that you hurt Alex. I'm so upset for Alex. You made him bleed! Poor Alex. That must have hurt him a lot, and you might have made Alex scared to play with you now. " Then the next time you see Alex, I'd say, in front of your boy "Alex, I'm so sorry that my son hit you with that car. That must have really hurt. It was a bad thing to do to you, and I'm really sorry." I wouldn't ask your son to apologise, because in my experience, an apology like that doesn't mean anything to either child, but your apology is a model to your son for future times.

My advice might not be helpful but it sounds like you’ve read the book and stuck to it. My advice is put the books down and use your intuition.
Stop labelling things as punishment. I have 2 beautifully behaved boys because they have always had strong boundaries. When they have hit I’ve explained firmly “you do not hit, it hurts and is unkind”. I don’t do time out but the hitter is removed from the room/situation whilst I check over the one who has been hit as he deserves my attention. Once he is ok I explain I’m going to talk to his brother, I go upstairs (usually) and talk to him about why he has hit, what led to it, try to label his feelings, ask how he feels now and how we move forward. We have a cuddle then go downstairs and the brother is cuddled. I don’t class this as a punishment or time out.

Natural consequences IMO are a bit of a cop out as it relies on people reacting how you’d expect. So if he shouts/throws his sister won’t want to play with him or near him, at nursery the children will be smaller and may well be afraid to say I don’t want to play with you. There also might not be as much room for them to get away from him.

[quote 81Byerley]**@Sunbo* your method of parenting would have seemed to have worked with me when I was a child, because I was just naturally well behaved. It wouldn't have worked with my brother, who was a lot like your son. In my years as a parent to four children, and as a childminder and foster carer, my approach was much more like that of @MessAllOver*, and in fact children who were perceived as difficult at home were fine in my house. I set boundaries immediately, and was consistent in my approach. (Eg. "You do NOT climb on my dining table, because you will damage it. You sit here and play with this , here, with me". ) I rarely had a child display difficult behaviour, to be honest, after the first couple of days, when naturally they were trying to work out what the boundaries were. Once they knew, it was as if they relaxed, and could get on with their job, which was to play and enjoy their day.
I think children feel safer when they know that there are boundaries and what they are. They need to feel that the adult is in control, and can be trusted to always be consistent. They need to feel loved, no matter what their behaviour is like, but they need to know that their adult is disappointed and upset if they really behave badly. When your child hurts someone else, you need to be saying something like "Sue told me that you hurt Alex. I'm so upset for Alex. You made him bleed! Poor Alex. That must have hurt him a lot, and you might have made Alex scared to play with you now. " Then the next time you see Alex, I'd say, in front of your boy "Alex, I'm so sorry that my son hit you with that car. That must have really hurt. It was a bad thing to do to you, and I'm really sorry." I wouldn't ask your son to apologise, because in my experience, an apology like that doesn't mean anything to either child, but your apology is a model to your son for future times.[/quote]
This is good advice. I have very strong boundaries but my children are very relaxed and i rarely have to reinforce them. If I do then a raise of the eyebrows is enough. Children thrive with boundaries as it makes them feel safe.

I agree with everyone saying your ds needs firmer boundaries. He responds well to your approach at home but that's not really helping him because real life is not what you are doing at home. In a school and social setting there are boundaries and rules which he would need to abide by. As it is he has sort of labeled himself at nursery as being the disruptive and naughty one. And now he has made another child bleed. These things out you, whether rightly or not to others around and he might experience other issues.
I can tell you, that if there was such a child who eventually hit another like yours there would have been much more of a consequence from school, the other parents and myself.
I don't think you are wrong in believing in your approach, it just might be the wrong one for your ds.
Real life is not home and you cannot expect the school to carry your methods out there.

I tried positive parenting with my DS. I have recently realised it often seems to "work" at home because he often gets what he wants/his own way more at home, because he and his sibling have quite similar preferences, and because it's not like preschool where there are 30 kids wants and needs to be juggled. You may also have a different threshold for what is acceptable behaviour.

But honestly? He needs former consequences. If he isnt behaving outside the home your positive parenting is not working. Often the natural consequence isnt bad enough to outweigh the fun of doing what you want.

At some point in life he is going to be faced with punishments, at school, in society generally.

OP, one thing you need to realise is that his situation outside of the home is very different.

When his sister refuses to play with him, they both know that this is a temporary show of annoyance. She is his sister, they live in the same house, she loves him and has known him all his life- she can't choose not to be his sister.

In the playground, other children do have that choice. Another 4yo doesn't have to choose to play with your ds or be his friend. If they get hurt or see their friends get hurt, they may well choose not to.

Later on, when lockdown is over and as they grow older, there will be playdates. Again, you can't force other parents to invite your ds over: if they find their children aren't happy about it, they probably won't.

Ds had a couple of friends who were constantly fighting and wrecking his things- I know I was the last parent to invite them into my house and even I stopped after ds pointed out that "you never invite grown-up guests home who shout or pushe each other or break your things". He had a point and I stopped trying to force him to be friends. Their parents were lovely people, but ds had the right to make that choice.

Now obviously, we can't rely on 4yos to behave impeccably all the time. There will be blips, even among the best brought-up children. But how you behave around the issue will matter to reassure the other children and the other parents that this situation is mostly under control.

If they think "this was a temporary blip and Sunbo is dealing with it" then they're more likely to give him another chance than it they think "well, Sunbo thinks it's more important to follow the book and not upset her ds than to keep me/my dc safe", then they most likely won't".

Do you follow Sarah Ockwell Smith on Facebook? She is all about positive/gentle parenting. On mumsnet the majority are mainstream punishment/reward parents, so you are not going to get tbe answers you need. All behaviour is communication, so i would say your son is communicating that the preschool is too rigid for him and he is struggling to conform. He's only 4, hes still learning what behaviour is acceptable in society.

Thanks for feedback. I appreciate the way I am parenting is maybe not working due to his behaviour at pre school but I am not going to use a naughty step or punishment, it goes against everything I have read about positive parenting and what believe in as the right way forward

I understand what you're saying, but because your child doesn't understand that there are consequences for bad behaviour, you have created a child that other people don't like. Is this really fair on him?

@JovialNickname

“you have created a child that other people don't like.”

I think the comment you have made above is really unfair. Other people do like him, he has friends at pre school and does play nicely with them. The issue is that sometimes his behaviour gets out of hand so that he is disruptive because he is messing about with his friends rather than listening to the teacher. He does not go around hurting other children, he was playing a superhero type game and says he accidentally hurt his friend. Obviously I wasn’t there to observe if this is what happened but he was remorseful when I spoke to him about it afterwards.

He does get angry and shout at home which appears to be about of frustration, his communication is good but for a 4 year old maybe he needs more time to process things, sometimes the anger is aimed at his older sister because he can’t keep up with her for example.

I do set boundaries and limits with empathy and tell him off when his behaviour is unacceptable. I am teaching him what is wrong and right and what is expected of him.

I was brought up by parents with two very different styles of parenting. My dad would shout and use punishments, I hated him for it but would try to behave well when he was present because I was scared of him and his punishments.

My mum was much kinder and empathetic in setting boundaries. She always made it clear what was expected and I behaved well for her because I respected her and wanted her to be proud of me for behaving well. This is the approach I am trying to take as I do not want my own children to behave well just on the basis that they fear punishments if they do not.

Autism crossed my mind but also if he's 4 already I'm guessing he's stating school later this year.
Quite a lot of 4 year olds get bored at preschool as they're actually ready for school. I haven't experienced it with my own children (all summer born) but this was common with older children at nursery.

[quote Sunbo]@JovialNickname

“you have created a child that other people don't like.”

I think the comment you have made above is really unfair. Other people do like him, he has friends at pre school and does play nicely with them. The issue is that sometimes his behaviour gets out of hand so that he is disruptive because he is messing about with his friends rather than listening to the teacher. He does not go around hurting other children, he was playing a superhero type game and says he accidentally hurt his friend. Obviously I wasn’t there to observe if this is what happened but he was remorseful when I spoke to him about it afterwards.

He does get angry and shout at home which appears to be about of frustration, his communication is good but for a 4 year old maybe he needs more time to process things, sometimes the anger is aimed at his older sister because he can’t keep up with her for example.

I do set boundaries and limits with empathy and tell him off when his behaviour is unacceptable. I am teaching him what is wrong and right and what is expected of him.

I was brought up by parents with two very different styles of parenting. My dad would shout and use punishments, I hated him for it but would try to behave well when he was present because I was scared of him and his punishments.

My mum was much kinder and empathetic in setting boundaries. She always made it clear what was expected and I behaved well for her because I respected her and wanted her to be proud of me for behaving well. This is the approach I am trying to take as I do not want my own children to behave well just on the basis that they fear punishments if they do not.[/quote]
OP, what that poster said was harsh and no doubt unfair. At the same time, you don't seem to respond to the more measured posters who try to point out that it is part of your job not just to equip him to keep friends but also to reassure teachers and parents that you are on top of the problem.

I know in your last post you seem to be suggesting there isn't a problem, but that is not what you said when you started this thread.

I can only repeat what I have said repeatedly: that 4yos do sometimes behave like this but that

a) they need the reassurance of knowing that you can stop them even if their own self-control lets them down

b) other children and their parents need the reassurance that you will prioritise everybody's safety above other considerations

c) teachers need the reassurance that you are willing to work with them and listen

My dad would shout and use punishments, I hated him for it but would try to behave well when he was present because I was scared of him and his punishments.

I don’t understand how people can have such a rigid, back and white attitude to parenting - there is a middle ground and setting firmer boundaries doesn’t mean shouting and scaring your children do what you will OP, you’re clearly not interested in making changes to support your DS.

My mum was much kinder and empathetic in setting boundaries. She always made it clear what was expected and I behaved well for her because I respected her and wanted her to be proud of me for behaving well. This is the approach I am trying to take as I do not want my own children to behave well just on the basis that they fear punishments if they do not.

I grew up in a large extended family and later brought up my own children in a large extended family. I think I could say that we all had empathetic, kind and firm parents who were not keen on punishing for the sake of it, we all loved our parents and wanted them to be proud of us.

But we did not all have equal measures of self-control: for instance, my eldest had very little impulse control until she reached junior school. The same applied to one of her cousins. Their brothers and cousins still had the right to know that we would keep them under control if they weren't able to do it herself.

@Pinkblueberry

My dad would shout and use punishments, I hated him for it but would try to behave well when he was present because I was scared of him and his punishments.

I don’t understand how people can have such a rigid, back and white attitude to parenting - there is a middle ground and setting firmer boundaries doesn’t mean shouting and scaring your children do what you will OP, you’re clearly not interested in making changes to support your DS.

This with knobs on. No parent in my extended family has ever been of the shouty, harshly punishing kind.

But no parent would delegate the dealing of a hitting or destructive sibling to the other sibling either: it just isn't fair. Children should not have to do the parenting.

Middle ground.

@corythatwas

I do recognise there is a problem because the pre school have told me about his behaviour there and I know it is not acceptable. I feel sick to my stomach that he hurt another child (whether it was an accident or not) I have scheduled a call with them to discuss.

Sometimes the parenting style a parent chooses isn't suitable for the child theyre trying to parent.

Tweak and adapt. Be a lot firmer in your approach. Once things settle down and he has a better understanding surrounding the current issues, then relax into your preferred style of parenting.

Maybe even for this kind of issue it would be better to team up with the nursery in order to make sure that there is some consistency in how the problem is dealt with. The quicker the issue is resolved, the quicker he gets a better understanding and the quicker you can get back to your preferred style of parenting.

Another recommendation for "The Explosive Child", sometimes children are reacting to triggers that we are unaware of. Also, kids develop at different rates - my son has always struggled with the idea of consequences. So, even if something is threatened as a consequence for bad behaviour, when it is implemented, he still can't make the connection between the behaviour and the consequence. He just sees that I am being unfair to him, and gets very upset. He also doesn't understand abstract rules - we had a lot of trouble when he started school, as he would just go in and start playing with whatever he wanted to play with. If the teacher asked him to stop, he didn't understand why, because the toys were there and he wanted to play with them - so why shouldn't he play with them? He also had hyperactive moments (fortunately not any more) where he would laugh in your face if you told him off, get very physical (luckily he's always been very small for his age), and nothing would calm him down. Oh, and frequent meltdowns too - he's always been behind with his emotional development, and can easily become overwhelmed. Anyhow, we have had to adapt our parenting strategies to account for all of these and understand when he is completely emotionally overwhelmed and in need of comfort or quiet, rather than giving consequences that he won't understand anyway.

Best parenting advice I ever saw on here: parent the child you have with the best tools at your disposal.

[quote Sunbo]@corythatwas

I do recognise there is a problem because the pre school have told me about his behaviour there and I know it is not acceptable. I feel sick to my stomach that he hurt another child (whether it was an accident or not) I have scheduled a call with them to discuss.[/quote]
That is good, OP. It's just that you don't seem very willing to listen to anyone on this thread, so we're kind of wondering if you will listen to the teachers.

Feeling sick isn't really what they (teachers, other children, parents) need from you: it won't help them. What they need is an openness to different approaches and the acknowledgment that trying something different won't necessarily turn you into your dad.

It's difficult isn't it. I too follow a similar approach to parenting (the AHA website is gold) but it very much depends on the child. This method worked/works beautifully with my 4 year old. It absolutely doesn't have the same impact with the 3yo. The difference is their personalities.

The eldest has always been a rule follower and I rarely have to correct her. My youngest was throwing toys all over the sittingroom yesterday. I told her if she didn't stop and pick them up then I'd have to take the toys away as she was going to break something/hurt someone. This is all it would have taken for my eldest to start scrambling to tidy or she'd be in floods of tears if I took them away. The 3yo simply smirked and told me to throw them in the bin she wouldn't be sad 🤦🏼‍♀️ I came down a bit harder and insisted she picked them up, and she did with help, but I imagine I'm going to have to adapt my approach with her in the coming years.

There was a little boy in my DDs preschool who was always getting into "trouble" the teachers were always pulling the mum aside and I overheard them telling her she "needs to talk to him at home" etc. I really did feel for her as she's a good mum and I suspect there's more at play. I thought it was really unprofessional of the preschool - not least because they were having these discussions in earshot of other parents - but because I would think that when he's in their setting it's their job to manage his behavior. She moved him to another preschool and while he's getting a little better advice he matures, the new preschool manage the behavior much better and have enough staff so that they can prevent most of it.

@RonObvious

Thanks your post is very helpful, sounds very similar to my boy. I think he does get overwhelmed easily too and struggles with his emotions. I find it hard to know what to expect from a 4 year old too

I am kind of wondering if some of your "natural consequences" approach isn't about a fear of losing your son's affection (as presumably you struggle to think of your dad with love).

But isn't what you're doing instead delegating that job to his sister? You say rely on the consequence of her telling him she doesn't want to play with him? So he gets angry with her instead? Is that fair? Shouldn't the adults be there to take the metaphorical hits and bear the anger if need be?

Also, how do you make it clear to him that there is a general rule here that applies quite regardless of what his sister thinks? Even if she was too kind to ever complain, it would still be wrong to hit her or wreck her things- how does he learn that if you rely on her reactions?

I do think he probably needs more positive attention as he probably gets a lot of telling off and I need to counteract that with more positive interactions

Oh jesus Christ