To ask for help with my 4 year old

[Sunbo]

I have a 4 year old DS who is in trouble at pre school for being disruptive, not listening to the teachers and generally being difficult. He has been there for around 6 months.

Today he was in a lot of trouble because he hit another child and caused them to bleed. I feel absolutely awful about it :( When I spoke to him about it he said he was playing and being a ‘baddie’ so didn’t mean to hurt the other child.

The teachers are getting frustrated with him as he needs constant reminders to behave nicely and sometimes just refuses to listen to them or laughs in their face when they tell him off. They have tried a sticker chart for good behaviour but it’s like he couldn’t care less about it.

At home he can be stubborn and difficult but he does listen when I or my DH tell him off. We follow a ‘positive parenting’ way (Aha parenting if anyone knows it) so we don’t do a naughty step or punishment but set limits and are quite clear about what behaviour is unacceptable. It’s with the idea that children should behave because they want to and know they should rather than because of the threat of punishment.

I have an older DD who is 8 and she has always been as good as gold with no issues so I honestly have no idea where I am going wrong with my DS! I have also tried sticker charts at home but he just doesn’t seem bothered by them. He is quite rigid and when we suggest going out or trying new things he often says no, even though he enjoys things when he does them...not sure if this is relevant. He can be such a sweet and loving boy at times but then other times it’s like he gets taken over with anger and / or silliness and can’t reign himself in.

I have read various parenting books but honestly don’t know what I can do...can anyone help please? Or suggest books or anything that might assist?

Thanks

@CSIblonde completely agree with everything you say.

Making another child bleed is a bit more serious though isn't it. First I'd have him write a sorry note - you can write it and he signs it - for him to give to the child. And to be honest, while I do follow gentle parenting myself and we don't do time out etc, if it's escalated to this level I'd be working with the nursery /preschool to establish clearer boundaries. He shouldn't have gone to forest school at all, never mind the first ten minutes.

Its a shame it only took a couple of posts for autism to come up. Even if your child has autism, actually especially if your child has autism, he needs firm boundaries and consequences for behaviour.
I don't think "natural parenting" works for all children. If your child is natural chilled and mild mannered of course it will seem like it works...as you're seeing with your younger child it isn't always effective.

What would you have liked the nursery to have done when he had hit another child and made them bleed? Also thinking that they need to explain this to the hurt child's parent too (we have incident forms for both parents that state how the situation was dealt with)! I think natural consequences definitely work in certain situations, but when it comes to hurting others then stricter boundaries do need to be put in place.

I feel for you OP. I have four DC- two of whom sound just like your DS (they are at uni now). I remember the dread of pick up and the “can I just have a quiet word”. With the benefit of hindsight I would try and find some middle ground with the preschool- or remove him. He is in the middle ground caught between your parenting style and the preschool who it sounds do not have the flexibility to deal with children who are not compliant.

Cut all sugar out of his diet, ensure he’s getting plenty of sleep.

I don’t want to be “that person” but am assessment for ADHD/ASD or any other issue might be worth thinking about. Ask your GP.

I was never a great fan of naughty steps or charts, but the weakness in your natural consequences approach seems to be that those consequences only work when he damages his own things or if other children are strong enough to stand up to him (e.g. his sister refusing to play with him).

There is no consequence if he breaks something belonging to somebody else or if they feel intimidated by him and daren't say they don't want to play with him because they're afraid of getting hurt. So you are making other children responsible for enforcing those consequences against someone who has already shown themselves willing to hurt them. Is that fair?

I think you do need to revisit this: keeping everybody safe (including other people's children) has to take precedence over your plan.

Other children are relying on you to parent him so as to keep them safe, and he is relying on you to keep him safe from others. You must send clear signals that the adults around him can and will stop him from hurting others. He needs to know that you can and will do this even when he refuses to listen to you- otherwise, his world won't be a very safe place at all.

When my ds was this age, there was a little boy who hurt him repeatedly at school. It made ds very anxious and unwilling to go to school. He would start worrying about it at dinnertime and think about it when he went to bed. Thankfully, it stopped quite soon, but it really did have a bad effect on ds.

Also yes to firmer boundaries. No need to swing towards harsher discipline, but just actions = consequences, and something more grown up than “that wasn’t very kind, was it darling?”

I honestly believe he behaves better at home when he feels connected, loved and respected.

But this is not the way of the real world, is it?

he is relying on you to keep him safe from hurting others

I prefer positive reinforcement, but sometimes that's not enough. I'm lucky, my daughter (at the moment) is mostly well behaved and wants to behave nicely, but if and when that isn't the case, she needs to be told no and have boundaries made explicit.

We followed a lot of Sarah Ockwell Smith advice, gentle parenting, attachment parenting, co sleeping, wouldn’t dream of letting my DD cry it out etc etc. But...when it comes to physical violence (hitting, biting etc) it was straight to her bedroom. She wasn’t shut in the room but was told to only come out when she was ready to apologise and I would sit outside the room. I totally understand the gentle parenting approach, but if your child has turned into a bit of a shit because of it, it’s time to try a different approach for everyone’s sake, him included. P.s I also hate the idea of a naughty step or threats for telling off. But interrupting their play and taking them to a different room is usually enough in my experience.

What’s the point in following a parenting style that clearly isn’t working? I agree with others that ‘natural consequences’ isn’t very practical, it’s an idealistic approach to parenting that probably only works well with children like your daughter who’s already naturally predisposed to not push the boundaries that far. It’s too adult a concept for many young children to understand, especially those who struggle with being told what to do and empathise with others. For his sake and the sake of others I think you need to take a break from this parenting style and enforce clearer boundaries.

Thanks for the responses. So the majority think I need firmer boundaries, what can you suggest? I don’t want to do time outs or naughty step.

I pull him up constantly on his behaviour and explain my expectations for his behaviour. I have tried removing toys when he has thrown them but then he just finds something else to play with.

I feel like a complete failure to be honest. As I’ve said before my DD always responded well to positive parenting and is so well behaved so feel totally out of my depth with him.

@Sunbo I totally agree about the positive reinforcement! That should far exceed negative attention.

Could you meet halfway? After all, that behaviour isn't acceptable in any nursery so it might be that simply moving him doesn't help. Could you talk to nursery and say you feel his behaviour is much better when his good choices are highlighted and when any consequences are ones that follow from the behaviour. Not going to forest school doesn't follow on from not listening in PE so I can see how that doesn't seem fair or make sense to him. Also that everyday is a clean slate so any consequence relates only to that one specific incident, not a string of things that have happened throughout the week.

On the flip side, you could make it clear to him that you support the decisions of the nursery staff so there's no confusion about what's tolerated while he's in that setting.

I pull him up constantly on his behaviour and explain my expectations for his behaviour. I have tried removing toys when he has thrown them but then he just finds something else to play with.

stop doing things that are obviously not working, op. If you nag him ("pull him up constantly") about his behaviour at home and he ignores you, that only demonstrates to him that he CAN ignore you and nothing will change.
If he can't play nicely with a toy, you remove ALL toy privileges for some length of time, not just that one toy. Isn't that obvious?

I've never used a naughty step, I don't believe that works.

I never thought I’d use it - I always thought it was a bit of a ridiculous when I saw it on supernanny (before I had a child) - but it’s been surprisingly affective. DS doesn’t go on the step much - if he’s pushing boundaries I say ‘do you need to go on the step’, 9 out of 10 times the answer is no and then the unwanted behaviour stops. But all kids are different and what works for some doesn’t work for others - what worked for OPs DD doesn’t work for her DS, so you need to figure out what’s best to help them make good choices. It’s no good to stubbornly continue with a parenting style that doesn’t support your child’s needs.

I feel like a complete failure to be honest. As I’ve said before my DD always responded well to positive parenting and is so well behaved so feel totally out of my depth with him.

You’re obviously not a failure. But you’re not showing much willingness to try something new to change things, so what else can people advise?

I don’t want to do time outs or naughty step.

Can you explain why?

Alternatively loss of certain privileges?
You said you’ve tried sticker charts - do they have an exciting end goal?

I'm sorry, but I really do think your parenting approach isn't working for your DS. You're not equipping him with the skills he needs to interact nicely in a group of children, which is going to set him up for failure at school, where they won't take a gentle approach. It's difficult to give advice because my parenting approach is totally different from yours. When my DS hits, pushes or barges in front of another child, I tell him off in no uncertain terms, make him apologise to the other child and remove him immediately from the playground or wherever we are while making it absolutely clear that his behaviour is the reason we are going home. Yes, there are hugs and cuddles later and we have a chat about it, but I don't see a problem in making it crystal clear to children that there are certain boundaries they can't cross. I find parents who don't immediately stop their children being aggressive to other children and instead wring their hands ineffectively saying "That's not kind" very annoying, to be honest.

Also, you say children should behave because they want to behave. That seems a little farfetched to me. Yes, some children will behave because they thrive on adult approval but the more stubborn or independently minded ones won't. If they want to do something, they want to do it, and often the only thing which will stop them is the knowledge that there will be consequences.

My first though was possible asd as soon as you said rigid and not wanting to do things especially new things. Mine has asd and I wouldn't completely do natural consequences or time out as I don't think either are ideal. Time out just becomes a battle with a child who won't stay or becomes cruel when you put them somewhere they can't get out of. I don't think bedrooms should be a place of punishment - after the first few times they'll probably just go in there and play anyway! Consequences need to be clear, much more clear than your sister won't want to play with you, no 4 year old is going to care about that. Mine could not be motivated by any sort of sticker chart either.
Does he hit his sister at home? How do you handle that? If it's just 'she won't want to play with you' then I think that is your problem. This is where natural consequences fall down because it requires you to have a sweet little darling to appear to work beautifully.

Is he always on the go? Could he have difficulties sustaining attention or perhaps does he need a lot more activity and more sensory input that some of his peers. Does he love spinning and swinging on playground equipment? Does he like hanging upside down and climbing? It sounds like you are calm and consistent and even if you’re not perfect parents (none of us are) he still really struggles.

The natural consequence of not being able to play with his sister does actually have a big impact as he loves doing make believe play with her and is clearly upset with himself when he realises his behaviour such as shouting means she doesn’t want to play with him. He doesn’t really hit her but he will throw things or mess up things she has created in anger.

He is quick to say sorry for his actions and seems remorseful but this does not prevent him from repeating the behaviour.

@Anothermother3 yes he is quite active and loves climbing and jumping

The teacher did indicate today that he is better behaved when doing a one on one activity with the teacher, I think when he is in free play he goes looking for mischief.

I read an article that the parents gave a token, for them it was a casino chip, when their child was doing something good...sitting playing well, polite manners and so on. They said they didn’t make a fuss and just dropped it in their lap sort of and if they did something they didn’t agree with they had to go to their room for a period of time. They had a chart for treats that the kids could trade the chips in for so over time they saved them up and then got something. It stated they did not make a fuss of good behaviour just handed them the chip and their kids thought it was a game and tried to work out what to do to get a chip.
My wee one is only 20m but it’s something that we are thinking about when the time is right.
I also think children need boundaries otherwise how will they learn to behave socially. I hope one day to be my child’s friend but for now I’ll be mamma till she’s in her 20’s or so cause that’s what she needs from me and her dad.

I would perhaps use a time out rather than 'naughty step' as this is a more positive way of dealing with the behaviour. I think the aspect I see missing here is the 'WHY'. Why is he doing these things. Behaviour is a form of communication. If he threw a toy, he needs a consequence, a time out to calm down and then we need to understand why it happened. The parenting approach you use will have to change for each child you have because children are individuals. Your daughter sounds like she got along well with your methods, but they are clearly not working for your son. So go back and rethink things. You know him better than any random internet people. What makes him tick? What kind of person is he? What conditions help him to thrive?

A good way to investigate behavioural incidents is to use the ABC methodology. A- anticident (what happened prior to the behaviour to lead to it) B - behaviour ( what happened) C - consequence (what was achieved through the behaviour?). If he is shouting out in class, perhaps the A is that he doesn't understand what to do, and the C is that he gets the positive attention and distraction he wants from the learning. This way you can start to better understand his actions and psychology and rethink your approach.