To ask for help with my 4 year old

[Sunbo]

I have a 4 year old DS who is in trouble at pre school for being disruptive, not listening to the teachers and generally being difficult. He has been there for around 6 months.

Today he was in a lot of trouble because he hit another child and caused them to bleed. I feel absolutely awful about it :( When I spoke to him about it he said he was playing and being a ‘baddie’ so didn’t mean to hurt the other child.

The teachers are getting frustrated with him as he needs constant reminders to behave nicely and sometimes just refuses to listen to them or laughs in their face when they tell him off. They have tried a sticker chart for good behaviour but it’s like he couldn’t care less about it.

At home he can be stubborn and difficult but he does listen when I or my DH tell him off. We follow a ‘positive parenting’ way (Aha parenting if anyone knows it) so we don’t do a naughty step or punishment but set limits and are quite clear about what behaviour is unacceptable. It’s with the idea that children should behave because they want to and know they should rather than because of the threat of punishment.

I have an older DD who is 8 and she has always been as good as gold with no issues so I honestly have no idea where I am going wrong with my DS! I have also tried sticker charts at home but he just doesn’t seem bothered by them. He is quite rigid and when we suggest going out or trying new things he often says no, even though he enjoys things when he does them...not sure if this is relevant. He can be such a sweet and loving boy at times but then other times it’s like he gets taken over with anger and / or silliness and can’t reign himself in.

I have read various parenting books but honestly don’t know what I can do...can anyone help please? Or suggest books or anything that might assist?

Thanks

I follow a very similar approach to you and believe it in wholeheartedly. My son goes to a Montessori nursery which has a similar approach (little/no praise or punishment) and that helps. When it comes to hitting or any undesirable behaviour, I would follow Janet Lansbury's advice: not much talking ("I don't want you to hit") and then a very swift intervention ("you can't stop so I will help you."). Taking action rather than saying lots. Personally I don't think there's much point in talking to a young child about something they've done hours earlier, so you're somewhat dependent on preschool to deal with what happens in preschool's time.

As an ex teacher , a natural consequence doesnt send the message effectively.

Yep. I think it’s something you buy into before you have children despite having very little experience with them. I don’t think you get particularly many experienced school and nursery workers trying these kind of parenting methods when they have their own kids. It’s well meaning, but also quite naive and idealistic, although I appreciate it works for some. But as a pp said it probably works as long as you’re child is already naturally amenable.

Would you consider time ins? When my 4yo is been silly he has to come sit on my knee for a few minutes to calm down. For us it's a good compromise as it's still a consequence to him as it takes him away from his game, but without him feeling pushed away or unloved. DS also need to understand why he shouldn't do something, instead of just been told not to, so I try to explain how his behaviour effects other (eg. Don't throw toys because it might hit someone and hurt them)

If he behaves OK at home and not at preschool I doubt it's you're lack of boundaries that's the issue. It might be he just doesn't cope with the loud boisterous environment.

@ForeverBubblegum

That’s a great suggestion thank you, will see how that works

He's only 4 so could be ADHD/ASD or could just be other emotional issues and he's still developing them. What do his nursery think regarding ADHD/ASD? Do they see any other indicators?

If you suspect ADHD/ASD keep any verbal requests to a minimum when he is angry. "Stop" "Kind hands" for when he hits/lashes out. Only talk about what happened when he is calm enough to listen.

If he is throwing toys, is he bored? Or is he angry? What is happening before the toy throwing? Same for any hitting.

I would hazard a guess that his "I don't care" reaction to missing forest school was because he felt defensive; he knows it was wrong to hit out.

@CrappingMyself Thanks. I have asked for a call with the pre school as it’s difficult to talk at collection time with other parents around.

He throws things when he is angry, he gets angry very quickly from 0-100, both my DH and I are very calm people so not sure where it comes from.

Definitely agree the ‘don’t care’ response is him being defiant.

The natural consequence of not being able to play with his sister does actually have a big impact as he loves doing make believe play with her and is clearly upset with himself when he realises his behaviour such as shouting means she doesn’t want to play with him.

His sister is bigger than him so she won't be afraid of saying that she won't play with him. That won't necessarily be the case with the children in playschool. She is old enough to be doing a little bit of parenting there. That isn't something you can expect from other 4yos.

Your difficulty is that there doesn't seem to be much point in disciplining him for something that happened hours earlier in a different place. The best you can be is to train him at home to expect that he will be stopped from behaviour you consider undesirable, and then support the teachers when they stop him at school.

Listen to what they have to say, don't immediately wade in and tell them about the books you have read. A good teacher will have many years' experience of the classroom situation and may have insights you can learn from.

My son who is 6 sounds a bit like yours. For hitting he gets a time out because thats the one thing I’m not prepared to tolerate but I don’t over use it for other things. The only other thing that works is taking money off him. So in give him £2 a week then take 20p off him if he miss-behaves. Your so is a bit young but maybe sweets in a jar that he can have in a Friday?

If he is to be around other children at all, then any parenting approach must also consider the effect on those other children. For a child who is bleeding and frightened seeing the attention turning to cuddling and making the aggressor the centre of attention can be quite scary. Not saying that I believe in a very punitive approach but he needs to learn and understand an approach that doesn't always make him the centre of attention or make it seem like he is being rewarded.

I'm going to go against the grain here - I don't think he needs firmer boundaries I think he needs his self esteem raising. He's playing a baddie? He gets pulled up all the time for his behaviour? I think he's decided he's a naughty boy and he's fulfilling that. My boy was exactly the same and pre-school and reception treated him like a naughty boy who just needed more and more and more boundaries. Until we called them out and they admitted they'd not got any more ideas. Long story short he was diagnosed with ASD (PDA) and sensory processing disorder. We read Ross Greene's Explosive Child and followed his CPS model and it changed our life. He's 7 now and calm and thriving at school. Go with your gut and if it's a gentle approach that works at home, then discuss that with school. He's not defiant, at 4 he's just probably an anxious baby. Hugs xx

He'll also be in nursery with younger children, there will be 3.5 year olds in preschool too. I have a small and quiet 3 year old who is often caught in the crossfire and although I know it often can't be avoided it's worth remembering that not all children can hold their own as well.

@withinacceptabletolerances

I really appreciate your reply thank you. I will look into that book.

He has referred to himself before as a ‘bad boy’ and I do think he is so used to being told off that he probably does view himself negatively. Particularly also because his sister gets lots of praise for her school work etc as she is older. I think I need to find more ways to praise him and help improve his self esteem.

He throws things when he is angry, he gets angry very quickly from 0-100, both my DH and I are very calm people so not sure where it comes from.

Then he needs some time out to calm before he can join back in. This is to help him regulate his emotions and he may need support with that.
childmind.org/article/can-help-kids-self-regulation/

Look into "Zones of regulation" and talk it through with both your children. If they can recognise their emotions then they can look to try and self-regulate them. You say your DS goes from 0-100 with anger, but it may be he is showing some subtle signs of anxiety/worry/stress before he gets there. It may be as simple as a frown/stare/clenched hand/fiddling with clothing or sleeves. He may even go very quiet like he closes down (I once worked with a kid like that!) but it was his way of saying he wasn't coping.

@OP you're welcome- I'm not saying your boy is autistic by the way. Autism is certainly part of our story but the self esteem bit was huge for us. He has a teacher now who is very caring and has concentrated on developing a relationship with him and he behaves for her as he doesn't want to let her down. That's so so important. If you want to pm me then feel free. X

As an EYFS TA, I implement positive parenting regularly, as do others. However, the one caveat for it are the three P's: people, pets (or animals) and property. If they are at even a tiny risk of hurting another child we intervene and move them away for the other child and their own safety. It isn't time out at all. It is breaking the hormone cycle of stress and release. They need a release. Some bite, kick or scribble or smash things. It is our number one job to keep them safe. Natural consequences do happen very frequently but if we left every child to have the empathy and understanding necessary to learn from them, it would be like Lord of the Flies in half an hour.

My son is quite similar and the thing that stands out to me is that both you and the preschool are very focussed on explaining. Explaining does not work with either of my kids. They need very clear, simple direction. Counting to 3 for example works well. Also removing the blame from situations by avoiding the word "you" can help e.g. by saying "no hitting" or "I don't let children hit" rather than "you mustn't hit", this can help avoid a defiant response.

Also I think your preschool has unreasonable expectations if it expects children to listen in PE. I've helped in preschool sports lessons and the kids were allowed to wander in and out as they liked. About a third joined in, a third wondered in and out, and a third completely ignored it and did their own thing. You can't expect preschoolers to engage in a PE lesson.

There seems to be a bit of confusion that a natural consequence is 'see what happens' - I'm fact a better description would be 'logical' consequence - you hit, that hurts people so you're coming away from that situation (a pp above articulated this well re montessori) - it's a boundary, if you do x, y happens. The opposite is the kind of parenting where you hit, so I hit you, or you don't get to watch tv tonight - a consequence so completely unrelated to the act, so kid doesn't really learn. I think alot of good parents actually do this instinctively and it doesn't really need a name for them - but it's not how I was parented so I had to learn it. And I came across it when the tradional methods of time outs etc were simply not having any effect.

Op I would also recommend The Explosive Child - lots of good advice in this book for kids who instinctively hit out. The 'i don't care' on forest school sounds exactly as my son would have said at that age- he does care very much but there's no way he would admit to it even at that age!
A few years on and my son is much better for this approach, listens, and I see him manage his own emotions - rage - he'll take himself away for a bit rather than chuck whatever came to hand (he was a thrower too!)

It’s hard to say but he might be a very active little boy in a very structured setting that isn’t the right for for him. Or he may go on to more clearly have adhd or sensory processing difficulties. Although clear expectations and boundaries are always good if he is more sensory seeking or even hyperactive he needs to move and have enough opportunity to meet that need to self regulate. If he can’t do that and spins out a bit and then ends up constantly feeling like he is naughty and bad that won’t help his behaviour. How open are the school to offering more support instead of just complaining that he isn’t towing the line?

Sorry my grammar is lacking.

You have my sympathy. He sounds like my son, who is also 4 and has an explosive temper. Mine is miraculously well behaved at school though, I have no idea how but at home he frequently kicks, hits, throws things and is very defiant. I don’t like punishment or reward techniques either, but I do come down hard on assaulting others or breaking his sisters things. Time ins work well for us too but not if he is attacking me, it’s ok to put him in his room if he’s causing harm to others. Too much explanation is confusing for a small child

no matter what the issue and what the parenting style, something that pretty much always works (alongside whatever else you do) is to 'catch them' doing things you like.

So you watch them really closely (while pretending you aren't) and every time you see them doing something positive, you make a nice comment on it. Not a massive fuss, just drip drip drip of positive attention.
Thanks for putting your shoes away nicely.
Oh it is great to see you sitting ready for dinner.
Thank you for helping to put away the toys.
I love to see your happy smile

It can be very difficult when there has been a lot of poor behaviour, but the aim is for you and him to see all the things in the week where he is doing well, it raises self esteem, gives him positive attention and generally is very effective.

Natural/logical consequences can still be firmer than you are issuing but still be natural/logical. Ie you throw a toy and its removed regardless of if it breaks. You scream at your sister than mummy takes sister and does something nice with her until you are calmer and ready to apologise.

Ultimately nursery need to deal with the behaviour happening there. I do have an autistic DD. One of the things that really helps her is using the same terminology and systems at home as it school. However her behaviour we are working on isn't 'naughtiness' it's anxiety and adhd impulsivity.

It needs to be his favourite toy OP. Or, screen time if he values that or not being allowed his favourite cartoon or TV show. I don't understand your reluctance re time outside ( I think naughty step isn't a helpful label, call it a time out chair/step). Have you watched any Super Nanny on You Tube? Jon Frost is excellent re boundaries, expectations & behaviour issues.

He is also still learning and young. It may be an idea to ask the nursery what causes the outbursts or lashing out. There is usually something he is trying to communicate through this behaviour. Eyes aren't on him all of the time so remember they are telling you what they have seen....perhaps not the full picture...although still not appropriate behaviours may give some kind of explanation.