That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

@Winesalot

My child's an adult now and would no longer have a meltdown, she'd just tell me to piss off, she's not asking my permission.

So the adult male now feels fully entitled to use female only spaces etc.

Yes, it would seem. Because they were taught as a child that that is ok.

These organisations not only have a false version and interpretation of the law but they have created an atmosphere where many people feel that they cannot speak up as it can put their job at risk. A family member has been directly affected by this but as a father he can’t speak up to protect his daughters interests because he feels that his job would be at risk.

The false interpretation of the law that is supported by the EHRC, the Government Equalities Office, the Law Society and pretty every other legal body in the land you mean?

And which has been backed by the courts: www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

That Kirklees case relates to a situation where the complainant was barred from the pub, not just requested to use the correct sex toilet. There is a discrimination lawyer on this thread who has said that MTF trans people without a GRC are legally male.

The EHRC guidance and the GEO is facing a legal challenge.

JJ, read the government website. It states exactly when women can exclude any male, even those with a GRC. With actually clear cut examples like sports.

So the big question is how and why do all these government bodies ignore their own law?

@PoleToPole

Can I just say thank you Fastedbrownie, for discussing and answering so openly. We have differing viewpoints but it is an extremely hard road you have been down, and a very difficult path for your stepdaughter .

For the thread question, no, I do not think women should be banned from social media for asking whether male bodied individuals should be allowed to access womens` spaces.
I do not think anyone should have these kind of threats levelled at them when they do try to discuss either:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3955276-resource-thread-of-tra-screenshots

Reddit banned the Gender Critical sub, which had 64,000 members saying it was a platform for hate speech, and that they would ban subs which "incite violence or that promote hate based on identity or vulnerability."
Despite that, Reddit have quarantined (so a content warning shows up before you go to the page) but still allow the subs:

r/rapekink

r/rapeconfessions

r/rapefantasy

r/rapeworld

r/rapestories

A whole host of others are also still allowed, I am trying to find the article I read the other day which has a list of them, I will post it when I find it again.

Reddit has banned plenty of subreddits that actively advocate for discrimination against marginalised groups in the real world. Plenty of subs that would be deemed actively "misogynist" have been banned, which why GC has resorted to listing a bunch of fetish subs. The ones actively politically advocating for discrimination against women are gone.

The Gender Critical sub got to a point where a significant portion of posts were thinly veiled excuses for people to talk about how much they hate trans people with no push-back.

I don't see how anyone who spent time on that sub would be surprised to see it gone. There are plenty of other subreddits that allow critical discussions about trans issues, whilst being more careful with moderation.

jj1968

Do you agree that male people with intact genitalia should not be allowed to share showers with teenage girls and do you also believe that no woman should be barred from Twitter for asking that question?

@334bu

**I would have thought they were. I haven't seen an outright public rape or death threat on twitter. That said, I don't think anyone is being banned for "The Staniland Question" either. I've seen plenty of people tweeting it.**

Have you read jk Rowling's Twitter feed? Have you not seen the pictures of transwomen with knives threatening Txxxs?

So if she wasn't banned for just asking should males with intact genitalia be allowed to share showers with teenage girls, what was she banned for?

Making a threat to kill is a very serious offence under UK law which is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Anyone who receives death or rape threats on social media should report them to the police as well as twitter.

Plenty of people have been banned for making such threats on twitter. It sadly happens to anyone with a reasonable profile online who expresses an opinion and particularly happens to women, including trans women. Usually they come from anonymous troll accounts who have little interest in the actual subject being discussed but merely want to cause trouble. I condemn them without hesitation, but I think there should be a clear distinction made between an actual credible death threat and some daft teenagers posting a meme of a cartoon character saying die in a fire or get in the sea. And whilst I don't think that behaviour is acceptable really, neither is accusing people of being groomers and child abusers simply because they have a different opinion to you on trans rights.

Neither do I think it's acceptable for high profile campaigners to wind up their audience of largely far/alt right followers by telling the men who carry guns to start using women's toilets to protect them from the trans - something which is breath-takingly irresponsible given recent events in the states and which few on here had the basic decency to condemn.

To be fairFasted it was you that brought your child/ relative into the conversation and we have absolutely understood how difficult and emotional it must be. However this does not override valid criticism of the TWAW position.

It’s not my “want” it’s the necessity of a child having their hygiene needs met.

This thread shows in more way than one why it is important that women talk - in order for women to fully understand the issues.

There will be activists and organisation which either lie or misrepresent the law. They will quote misleading statistics or cases which are not relevant.

In order for anyone to be fully informed about the issues, it is essential to take advice from lawyers, employment lawyers and people who can properly explain the issues.

When different accounts conflict, it should be easy to look into the links and the comments and form an own opinion as to what the correct interpretation of current situation and legal status is.

I have a feeling that it is easier to throw statements, links, and accusations of bigotry for some people. Especially if the same statements and links are provided on multiple threads even though they again and again are being refuted.

jj the EHRC was forced to withdraw its deliberately incorrect advice and is now subject to court action to force it to actually provide the correct version to all those organisations that it gave false info to. The previous chair was very biased against womens rights to single sex spaces but thankfully has been replaced , hopefully with someone more objective.

Here is the actual real live law - not Stonewall law or any other made up law - it is clear as a bell I’d say.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

@PinkyU

It’s not my “want” it’s the necessity of a child having their hygiene needs met.

the child has other choices. Especially if third spaces become a thing.

My child doesn't nor do muslim girls.

@334bu

jj1968

Do you agree that male people with intact genitalia should not be allowed to share showers with teenage girls and do you also believe that no woman should be barred from Twitter for asking that question?

Have you got any examples of men with intact genitals sharing showers with teenage girls? Is this widespread?

Otherwise it's a bit of a redundant question isn't it? The vast majority of showers have stalls which ensure privacy and I support that. I don't think teenagers should be exposed to any adult's genitals whatever their sex. I also don't think people should be banned from social media for asking it though.

We should not be applying policy, and especially not policy relating to safeguarding, based on individuals.

FastedBrownie I have no doubt that your child was no overt threat to the girls at their school. I equally have no doubt that the school saw the troubled teen in front of them and wanted to ease their discomfort as much as they possibly could, from a place of empathy and compassion which is absolutely understandable and admirable - up to a point.

But that point comes when the course of action chosen has the potential to impact adversely other users of that school’s services, namely girls. It’s highly unlikely any girls were consulted in that decision making. It’s highly unlikely any parents of girls were consulted. But it’s girls who are put at risk. Because while your child may well be lovely and harmless, what happens when the next boy presenting as transgender isn’t? When they are quite happy with their penis and more than willing to use it?

You can’t make safeguarding policy on the basis of “well this person is lovely and seems harmless”. We don’t handwave away DBS checks because it’s my Uncle Peter applying for the job as school caretaker and I can tell you all he’s a great guy. We have that process for a reason and most right-thinking people understand and accept that process, rather than taking it as an affront to their integrity. And so neither should we be so quick to allow males into female spaces just because they are, or claim to be, transgender. Because just like people working with children or vulnerable adults, males in female spaces have the potential to be capable of doing those females great harm, and the only way we know who is the FastedBrownie’s child “good guy” type and who is the proto-Jessica Yanniv or Katie D or Karen White or or or...is when the harm has been done, and then it’s too late.

Males are males and belong in male spaces, regardless of whether they hate their penis, lost it in an accident, have had it surgically removed, stunted its growth with early hormone treatment or love to windmill it round at all and sundry. Penis or not, none of those people are women. So keep them out of women’s spaces.

I would like to see trans women/people and their allies get support in try to make male sexed spaces safer, so they will stop badgering us. Surely there are some men out there who would support that ? Why isn’t this happening. I could see the “old style” group leading the younger ones into male spaces and asking for acceptance there. Well, I sort of can see it....

@Langrycleg

To be fairFasted it was you that brought your child/ relative into the conversation and we have absolutely understood how difficult and emotional it must be. However this does not override valid criticism of the TWAW position.

That's completely fair, and as I've said multiple times to both you (general you) and mnhq, I'm happy to look past the snide shit to have this conversation, just don't gaslight and pretend it's not happening. Just because I'm not reacting to it doesn't mean it's going over my head. I've been doing this for 15 years, I've seen and read it all.

Neither her do I think it's acceptable for high profile campaigners to wind up their audience of largely far/alt right followers by telling the men who carry guns to start using women's toilets to protect them from the trans - something which is breath-takingly irresponsible given recent events in the states and which few on here had the basic decency to condemn.

Nor are the pictures of people pointing guns and knives on Twitter any less unacceptable.

However, Helen Stanislaus did not threaten anyone, she merely asked a question and yet she was banned from Twitter.
Do you consider her question as offensive as threats of violence?

Plenty of subs that would be deemed actively "misogynist" have been banned, which why GC has resorted to listing a bunch of fetish subs. The ones actively politically advocating for discrimination against women are gone.

So if rape is a fetish it’s OK then? And not in the least misogynistic? Goodness me.

Staniland

jj yes or no? And how do you know how showers are arranged everywhere?

Making a threat to kill is a very serious offence under UK law which is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Anyone who receives death or rape threats on social media should report them to the police as well as twitter.

I'm pretty sure women have.

**jj1968

Do you agree that male people with intact genitalia should not be allowed to share showers with teenage girls and do you also believe that no woman should be barred from Twitter for asking that question?

Have you got any examples of men with intact genitals sharing showers with teenage girls? Is this widespread?

Otherwise it's a bit of a redundant question isn't it? The vast majority of showers have stalls which ensure privacy and I support that. I don't think teenagers should be exposed to any adult's genitals whatever their sex. I also don't think people should be banned from social media for asking it though.**

Nice swerve but do you agree that males sharing communal girls showers would not be a good idea?

@jj1968 Hampstead ladies pond has had intact males using the showers, and cases I remember in Palm Springs and Washington State - Washington actually had to change the law because of a trans woman called Colleen Francis who insisted on being naked in the changing rooms at the same time as the teenage girls swim team used them every week.

For some women it doesn’t even have to happen - just the knowledge that at any moment a male person could come into the changing room where you are undressed makes the facility unusable for some women.

How many women are you happily to exclude ?

I'm happy to look past the snide shit to have this conversation

Which women have also done to talk to you because you've thrown out some snide shit on these threads too, about women and girls who don't want males in single sex female spaces. So not just you "rising above".

[quote gardenbird48]jj the EHRC was forced to withdraw its deliberately incorrect advice and is now subject to court action to force it to actually provide the correct version to all those organisations that it gave false info to. The previous chair was very biased against womens rights to single sex spaces but thankfully has been replaced , hopefully with someone more objective.

Here is the actual real live law - not Stonewall law or any other made up law - it is clear as a bell I’d say.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7[/quote]
The EHRC withdrew advice which stated that someone with a Gender Recognition Certificate should always be treated as their aquired gender. This was a mistake which they acknowledged and the guidance was withdrawn. Despite this someone is now attempting to sue them claiming that they somehow need to contact everyone who might have seen the mistaken guidance and tell them they made a mistake. The courts as yet have not accepted the claim - we shall see what they decide. My guess is that it is unlikely that they will take a claim very seriously based on guidance which contained an error and has now been withdrawn simply because they didn't prostrate themselves sufficiently to appease the gender critical movement.

Their current guidance on trans inclusion remains largely the same however, which is that those with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment should be permitted to use spaces inline with their gender unless discrimination serves a proportionate means on meeting a legitimate aim. The Law Society agree, as do the Government, as do almost all lawyers in this field and the courts have backed this interpretation. Of course some people on the internet say they are all wrong because reasons. I know who I'd rather take legal advice from.