That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

Thank you for answering Fastedbrownie.

I think most women here would support a separate position for trans women.

I think this is emotional because many women here have experienced sexual assault, discrimination and still see how disadvantaged women are in society. It took a very long time to get society to consider issues relating to women and this is still inadequate. To have a position which is both desperately needed and desperately fought for being taken by a trans woman who is unlikely to focus on the key issues for biological women (sex related such as maternity, gynaecological issues etc) is very hard to see.

I hope you can see the view that less of TRA time should be spent on taking female positions, accessing female spaces and trying to silence any discussion about this. More TRA time should be spent on arguing trans rights, trans positions and having an adult conversation about both the issues trans people face (medical, emotional) and how to balance the conflicts of interests instead of trying to silence women.

I am astonished that there isn’t an outcry from both sides about this being silenced.

Fasted

You said

Not exactly. I don't know what's in your daughters pants and I don't care to. It could be an entire dorm of transgirls for all I know or care.

Put simply, the school asked if we wanted a girl or boy hall. We said girl. We then went through a range of possible arrangements before settling on one that worked for all of us. I didn't put a gun to their head and say girls' halls or else...

You are relying on everyone else understanding and agreeing on the word girl so you can choose their space. Whilst simultaneously denying and disagreeing on the definition of the word girl - also so that you can use their space!

And there are single sex exemptions possible for service providers as part of the "sex" protected characteristic.

There are even a few exemptions within the GRA itself.

I think there should be a trans and women's position, but unfortunately there often isn't and natal women and transwomen get lumped together. As long as that keeps happening, I believe transwoman have a right to stand for those positions. Especially when being voted upon by their peers

The case I mentioned on the other thread is that there is at least one uni with both a LGBT officer and the women’s officer role being taken by transwomen.

Do you support tightening up these loopholes that allow this situation?

Or do you believe it is ‘just uni’ and has no real impact and they were elected (despite the fact that we have seen political parties apply tactics of having groups of males (of all genders) vote just so their agenda can be driven).

And if you don’t believe that these positions have impact, you might want to check who often leads the deplatforming of women speaking on issues these roles disagree with. It has been happening for years now.

I am astonished that there isn’t an outcry from both sides about this being silenced.

Sadly I'm not, they simply don't care about the views of women and girls. They don't want to talk about it because it highlights breaches in safeguarding which run contrary to the ideology they promote.

If TWAW then there is no need for separate spaces based on a persons SEX.

@Winesalot

I think there should be a trans and women's position, but unfortunately there often isn't and natal women and transwomen get lumped together. As long as that keeps happening, I believe transwoman have a right to stand for those positions. Especially when being voted upon by their peers

The case I mentioned on the other thread is that there is at least one uni with both a LGBT officer and the women’s officer role being taken by transwomen.

Do you support tightening up these loopholes that allow this situation?

Or do you believe it is ‘just uni’ and has no real impact and they were elected (despite the fact that we have seen political parties apply tactics of having groups of males (of all genders) vote just so their agenda can be driven).

And if you don’t believe that these positions have impact, you might want to check who often leads the deplatforming of women speaking on issues these roles disagree with. It has been happening for years now.

It's a mindfuck.

Agreeing, that order to address discrimination, there should be female only positions, but saying any man can access them.

@CoffeeTeaChocolate your post about seperate representation just sits so well with me and my POV. And I think it’s why I feel so uncomfortable with this debate (for many other reasons too) because the stance of the woke, TRAs is that to even have this representation is to be transphobic. I don’t identify with being transphobic. But I want my views to be heard without being labelled before I even finish a sentence.

@DedlyMedally

The person was probably banned because it's a dog-whistle. SM sites ban for dog-whistles all the time. The fact that it seems innocuous to an outsider and people can get indignant about it is the whole point of a dog-whistle.

It's very unlikely they were banned just for asking that question which they''ve being doing for months on twitter without getting banned as have plenty of other people who haven't been banned.

Can someone brighter than me explain please - it seems to me that a major difficulty is that some organisations prematurely adopted policy changes as if self ID was a done deal. But it wasn't put into legislation, and now the it's hard to roll things back. Is that a fair, albeit incomplete, assessment?

@Scout2016

Can someone brighter than me explain please - it seems to me that a major difficulty is that some organisations prematurely adopted policy changes as if self ID was a done deal. But it wasn't put into legislation, and now the it's hard to roll things back. Is that a fair, albeit incomplete, assessment?

Yes it's fair Stonewall has gone into corporations and public bodies and given their definition of trans as if it is the legal position and because Stonewall has been considered the authority on LGBT these organisations have assumed they are promoting the correct legal position. They are not.

In order for sex to mean gender from the point of view of protected characteristic and for a person who has undergone a Gender Reassignment to mean a person who Self ID's as the broad stonewall definition of trans, then there should be a change in primary legislation to say these things.

Placemarking in case this vanishes.

It's a mindfuck. yes

Agreeing, that order to address discrimination, there should be female only positions, but saying any man can access them.

To Fasted’s credit. She has been honest in saying she doesn’t believe that awards or positions should be set aside for countering discrimination. Now, does she believe women and girls are still subject to discrimination? She may not believe it and may not believe the legions of reports, articles etc that remind us they do. And our own anecdotal evidence.

There is a fair degree of sexism in the way women and girls distress is minimised but her child’s teenaged tantrums are more important and not to be minimised at all.

Or it could be a contradiction that has come about to be able to cope with those tantrums and the effect it would have had on the family. I know a friend’s children and the one who had massive tantrums as a tween significantly impacted the mental health and well being of the other child.

I don’t know and am most likely wrong and obviously, Fasted knows why these inconsistencies are there.

**00jj1968

DedlyMedally

The person was probably banned because it's a dog-whistle. SM sites ban for dog-whistles all the time.
The fact that it seems innocuous to an outsider and people can get indignant about it is the whole point of a dog-whistle.

It's very unlikely they were banned just for asking that question which they''ve being doing for months on twitter without getting banned as have plenty of other people who haven't been banned.**

So it's a dog whistle now to ask whether males with intact genitalia should be allowed to share communal showers and changing rooms with girls?
jj1968 Where is your evidence that the reason for the ban was for something other than the above question?

@lifeturnsonadime

Fasted you mentioned earlier about your sd's potential meltdowns if she couldn't use the Female facilities. You said she would pee her pants in the car if she couldn't use the loo and it would ruin the day.

I responded but I think it has been lost on page 40 of the last thread.

I have an autistic 11 year old daughter who frequent meltdowns (that she can't help) because of her autism. If she comes across something that's 'not right' she meltsdown. Seeing a male bodied person in a female loo would cause her to meltdown. She would pee her pants and we would have to go home. If she experiences this JUST ONCE it is likely I will struggle to get her to go out for the day at all because she will be worried about using the ladies loos altogether.

I know she won't be the only person affected in this way.

Why do the needs of trans identifying men trump this?

You have asked us to have sympathy with your SD, I do, I have sympathy with other parents dealing with extreme challenges for their children. But why do you think that third spaces won't work to resolve everyones issues. Why is your child's meltdown more important than my child's?

The reason why my child's meltdown trumps your child's meltdown TO ME is the exact same reason yours trumps mine to you. We are* facing very similar problems and unfortunately need to do what we can to get through the day. It's shitty and I wish there was a better solution, but there's not.

*talking hypobolically. My child's an adult now and would no longer have a meltdown, she'd just tell me to piss off, she's not asking my permission.

If anything Helen, the person this thread relates to, was harassed by activists. I was reading her tweets daily for the past month or two. Activists were relentless in their hostility and their harassment. including one that jj has posted links to in other threads (so I take it is one of the activists they WILL listen to with their (the activists in question) completely biased view of feminism).

So jj do you feel that by asking the question Helen did, she deserved what she got? Being called ‘penis lady’ and having penis yelled at her? Do you agree that she deserved that. Because that is what happened.

So as an adult does your stepchild believe that their needs trump all others?

My child's an adult now and would no longer have a meltdown, she'd just tell me to piss off, she's not asking my permission.

So the adult male now feels fully entitled to use female only spaces etc.

@lifeturnsonadime thanks. Of course, the influence of Stonewall behind it all. Organisations so scared of complaints and law suits that they wanted to stay ahead of the game and ended up implementing incorrectly and unnecessarily.

faceless hypothetical rape victims
FastedBrownie I'm sorry, I didn't see the post this quote is referring to.

I can give you a non-faceless, non-hypothetical rape victim - I've been posting this in the other threads so I'm not sure if you saw it and dismissed it for some reason.
Do you think that women should be able to choose to have a biological female to do intimate medical procedures, or do you agree with the NHS that this is "unacceptable" and the same as racism?

She's called Clare and here's an interview but if you don't want to read Glinner, there's also a news article
glinner.co.uk/interview-with-clare-dimyon-mbe/
www.brightonandhovenews.org/2019/12/09/hospital-apologises-to-rape-victim-for-branding-her-request-for-same-sex-breast-screening-medic-as-transphobic/

Fasted there is a better solutions, third spaces.

But that would require a degree of compromise that you are not prepared to make.

No matter what the impact is on others.

I find that very sad.

Yes scout thats about right.

Many organisations have publically announced on twitter that people are free to use the spaces of their choice. So the hope it would be limited to a few quiet trans people is sadly long gone. Now we have males posting pictures if themselves in womens underwear in womens changing room. Instead of seeing the harm that these fraudulent males and sone very aggressive TRAs have done, sadly the beef seems to be with wonen for trying to maintain their legal rights

Many trans people want nothing to do with this though. But sadly they are shut down too.

@Winesalot

It's a mindfuck. yes

Agreeing, that order to address discrimination, there should be female only positions, but saying any man can access them.

To Fasted’s credit. She has been honest in saying she doesn’t believe that awards or positions should be set aside for countering discrimination. Now, does she believe women and girls are still subject to discrimination? She may not believe it and may not believe the legions of reports, articles etc that remind us they do. And our own anecdotal evidence.

There is a fair degree of sexism in the way women and girls distress is minimised but her child’s teenaged tantrums are more important and not to be minimised at all.

Or it could be a contradiction that has come about to be able to cope with those tantrums and the effect it would have had on the family. I know a friend’s children and the one who had massive tantrums as a tween significantly impacted the mental health and well being of the other child.

I don’t know and am most likely wrong and obviously, Fasted knows why these inconsistencies are there.

I think I've pretty open about the fact it was very much the second option. I couldn't be dealing with these meltdowns and entire days ruined simply because my child needed to pee. There comes a point where you just say fuck it. It's not worth the stress and drama.

@lifeturnsonadime

Fasted there is a better solutions, third spaces.

But that would require a degree of compromise that you are not prepared to make.

No matter what the impact is on others.

I find that very sad.

Third spaces do not exist.

X post 334bu. This has been playing in my mind all night while reading these posts.

We acknowledge that this decision was done for your own priorities, however, Fasted, to be fair, you have come across as not even acknowledging that women and girls have needs. You disparaged their needs as paranoia which is a complete ‘fuck you’ if you are a PTSD sufferer.