Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Who should pay?

248 replies

Fudgewhizz · 30/01/2021 23:25

Scenario: Sibling A lent Sibling B a car seat (a good one) to help them out when they had a baby, as money was tight. It was made clear that they would need it back when they had another child.

Sibling A had another child and asked for car seat back, giving several months' notice (obviously). Sibling B had been using seat for 18 months by this point. Covid hit, car seat couldn't be returned in person so needed to be couriered.

It took Sibling B another six months to get round to sending the seat, citing not having found a replacement seat / big enough box to send in / too expensive to send / too busy. Finally got round to sending it (had had it two years). In the meantime, Sibling A has been using car seat that is about to expire (apparently they have a shelf life, after which time the plastic degrades) and will soon be outgrown.

Car seat arrived filthy, with part of the harness worn away due to incorrect usage (twisted belt causing friction in the wrong place so badly fraying), and inadequately packed. Has clearly been chucked around by couriers - standard, and should have been packed better as this is to be expected. Had no padding round it and had obviously been rattling round in the box. Dirt and potentially harness could have been resolved (if harnesses available as a spare part), seat being thrown around cannot as there's no telling what unseen damage has been done (which is why they advise to replace seat if it's been in even a minor accident).

Sibling B is refusing to contribute at all to cost of new seat, citing money issues and that it's not their responsibility at all, and they've already spent money sending it back. Sibling A also has money issues and can't really afford to replace a seat that they were counting on using and would have been able to had it been packed properly (or if they'd not lent it in the first place - lesson learned there).

I mean, it's obvious which sibling I am, but who is right? Who should have paid for sending it back, and should sibling B offer to contribute to a new seat? Wear and tear and dirt fair enough, seat unusable I think not so much.

OP posts:
Sexnotgender · 31/01/2021 09:42

I’d suggest you both need to pay 1/2. I’d never lend a car seat in the first place though.

callmeadoctor · 31/01/2021 09:43

Minter reached out to numerous car seat manufacturers and retailers expecting that they would be able to point him to a specific study or testing protocol used to determine when and why car seats expire. But he didn't get a clear answer. Most companies did not reply or declined to comment.

He tells Motherly he was stunned that companies that use expiration dates on their products and marketing were unable to substantiate the claim that car seats degrade to the point of being unsafe after six years of existence.

Neither Minter or Motherly could uncover a specific study that is the basis of this rationale. The United States Highway Transportation Safety Administration says there is no regulation prohibiting parents from using an expired car seat, but on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's website, parents are advised "The seat has labels stating date of manufacture and model number. You need this information to find out if there is a recall on the car seat or if the seat is too old."

What could happen if a car seat is "too old?" Well, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's website does not go into detail, but the Government of Canada's website does.

It states that:

"Manufacturers give an expiry or useful life date because over time:

Frequent use and exposure to sunlight can damage and weaken plastic;
Safe-use labels on the products fade or become hard to read;
Instruction manuals have likely been lost;
Food, cleaners, drinks and other materials that have been spilled or used on webbing, buckles, adjusters and other parts may prevent them from working safely;
The history or condition of the car seat or booster seat becomes hard to check (was it in a crash, was it stored in a place or in a way that caused damage to parts, etc.?);
Safety regulations and standards may have changed, so safer products may now be on the market; and
Second or subsequent owners may not get product safety recall notices if problems arise."
There is research to backup the first point. Exposure to sunlight can indeed damage plastic, but neither Minter nor Motherly were able to find any research that specifically looked at car seats, and how the plastic used in them might degrade when subjected to standard use in vehicles.

"We should actually have data available on the relative safety or unsafety of a secondhand car seat that, say sat in a car for 5 years in sunlight and one that's totally new. And yet, if [manufacturers have] done those tests, for whatever reason, they're not willing to disclose them," Minter tells Motherly.

As for the rest of the Canadian list, the reasons listed do not apply to every car seat or situation. A family that is considering reusing their own car seat for a second or third child would know if it has ever been in a collision and how it was stored. The parents would know how often the car seat was cleaned and would either have the instruction manual or access to an online version.

As we've noted, government agencies in the United States and Canada do discourage parents from using expired car seats, and in these countries it is common for used car seats to be shredded or sent to the landfill, expired or not. But in some other countries, the use of used car seats is viewed as perfectly acceptable and is actually encouraged.

Sweden has a remarkably low rate of child fatalities related to vehicles. The country is very seriously trying to reduce the rate to zero, and yet the director of traffic safety and sustainability at the Swedish Transport Administration, Maria Krafft, has publicly stated that used car seats are fine to use.

Krafft put Minter in contact with Professor Anders Kullgren of the Karolinska Institutet and the Chalmers University of Technology, who replied: "We have the same experience in Sweden. Manufacturers of child restraints (and other safety equipment such as bicycle and motorcycle helmets) tell their customers to buy a new product after a certain period of time, often relatively short. We can't see any evidence to justify that from what we have seen in real-world crashes."

Kullgren went on to say that he has access to car seats that are over 20 years old and has not seen any degradation in the plastic.

SaltyTootsieToes · 31/01/2021 09:49

How horrible some people are being to you OP

You’ve every right to expect the return of something you lent out. However, take this as a learning lesson. Don’t lend things out you’re not prepared to get back or get back damaged. It’s an age old problem. Even involving people such as your sibling who should have been more careful as well as more appreciative of your lending the car seat

And no, you’re not “wrong” for doing it. Years and years ago it was common to loan out baby things, expect that they’d be cared for while on loan and then returned. Not sure if it’s a change in people’s behaviour plus how things are made these days, but now I wouldn’t loan out anything unless prepared for a problem with getting it back.

Sorry this has happened to you and at a time you can’t really afford to replace plus now you see your sibling’s true colours.

DaisyHeadMaisy · 31/01/2021 09:53

Those suggesting 50/50, have a look on your local Facebook market place and have a look at what is available, where I am, anything over £20 doesn't shift, people do not buy second hand car seats. Have a look at new ones, you can get a new car seat for under £40. Why would OP expect her brother to spend at least £20 on the courier, purchase packaging (because how often do you order something with a box big enough to fit a carseat in), then give it a full valet and send it back. For a car seat that was £70 new! Not that I would use a car seat between siblings but the brother is probably thinking for the cost and effort of sending it back, he could have at least bought one he could keep.

When Covid hit and he wasn't able to bring it on a visit to give it back, you should have just said keep it.

MindyStClaire · 31/01/2021 09:55

@faithfulbird20

Plus it's not worth arguing about/stressing over.
OP has stated several times that she can't really afford to replace it. An unexpected expense of a couple of hundred quid would be worth stressing over to a huge proportion of the population.
pictish · 31/01/2021 09:58

@DaisyHeadMaisy

Those suggesting 50/50, have a look on your local Facebook market place and have a look at what is available, where I am, anything over £20 doesn't shift, people do not buy second hand car seats. Have a look at new ones, you can get a new car seat for under £40. Why would OP expect her brother to spend at least £20 on the courier, purchase packaging (because how often do you order something with a box big enough to fit a carseat in), then give it a full valet and send it back. For a car seat that was £70 new! Not that I would use a car seat between siblings but the brother is probably thinking for the cost and effort of sending it back, he could have at least bought one he could keep.

When Covid hit and he wasn't able to bring it on a visit to give it back, you should have just said keep it.

In a nutshell.
Marchitectmummy · 31/01/2021 10:10

Sibling B should have been honest that thr car seat was wrecked and saved the money positing it and used that to contribute to a car seat.

GreySkyClouds · 31/01/2021 10:13

This is why I’m refusing to have anything my SIL says she’s lending me. Either give it to me, I buy it, or I’ll pass.

Not everyone has the same standards when it comes to looking after things.

faithfulbird20 · 31/01/2021 10:13

@MindyStClaire a couple of hundred quid? Yikes that would bother me too. You can get decent ones for under 40 quid. If they were that expensive I wouldn't loan them out. I'd either sell or store. Fact is is never hope to reuse something I'd loaned out. Once it's loaned out. It's gone for me. If it was very pricey I wouldn't loan it out. I'd rather sell it.

harknesswitch · 31/01/2021 10:16

I'd chalk it up to experience and not lend anything to that person again.

If you know you're going to have to give it back m, then then respectful thing to do is look after it and return it when asked for. B has been selfish, I'd not lend her anything again.

sapnupuas · 31/01/2021 10:17

@DaisyHeadMaisy

But the car seat wasn't £70, it was £280.

Therealjudgejudy · 31/01/2021 10:19

@AbbeyBelfast has it spot on...

evouk · 31/01/2021 10:22

I'm taking two child car seats to the tip tmw! DD is too big for one and the other isn't a 360 so bought one. Noticed last week both have mold on them

This post is a good example of doing somebody a favor and then regretting it, most of us have been there. I would be a bit annoyed too. Like you said, no more items lent to them in the future

user1471538283 · 31/01/2021 10:37

I would be furious. Sibling B has no pride. If something is on loan you look after it. I also would not put my child in it or lend it out.

I sold DS's car seat after he was finished and it was immaculate. I dont see how it would be ripped and filthy

rookiemere · 31/01/2021 10:46

Did your DB ask to borrow the car seat, or did you offer to lend it ?

TBH I think both parties are being a bit unreasonable. I wouldn't expect a car seat to be in a fit state after two sets of use, but instead of going to the bother of sending it on I'd have offered you something towards a new one.

I don't think you should have lent it if you were planning to use it again - it's not like a Moses basket which can be used until it falls apart.

grey12 · 31/01/2021 10:55

@Fudgewhizz

Definitely wasn't expecting no wear and tear - that would be totally unreasonable. I was expecting to be able to use it again though, and I would have been if he'd wrapped the stupid thing up properly instead of just chucking it in a half-broken box. The dirt I can cope with, the harness might be replaceable, the ripped bits I can sew up, but I cannot in all conscience put my child in a seat that's been kicked around by couriers with no protection.
My kids seats are in great condition Hmm the one for my oldest was bought over 3 years ago, has travelled by plane 2/3 times and still looks almost new.
grey12 · 31/01/2021 10:57

@Fudgewhizz I know there's a pandemic around and all that.... but what's the problem with your brother driving to your house and leaving the car seat outside your door??!!! Why do you need a courier???

HikeForward · 31/01/2021 11:05

I think the lender of the carseat should make a mental note not to lend again to her sister, and let it go instead of trying to squeeze money out of her.

Car seats do get filthy and damaged, did the lender expect it back in pristine condition? How do you ‘clean’ the fabric of a car seat?

I think it’s a bit silly to lend baby items to family if you plan to have another baby before they’ve finished with the item! It’s like lending a cot then snatching it back while sister’s baby is still in it.

Sending by courier must have been horrendously expensive. She could have bought a cheap replacement car seat for that!

Godimabitch · 31/01/2021 11:10

Sibling B should pay. Why should sibling A buy 2 car seats and sibling B buy none.
They wont give you money though so lesson learnt, no more free stuff for them!

Brefugee · 31/01/2021 11:14

frankly? the courier fees should have been transferred over as part of the cost of a new seat.
Car seats have a shelf life and get used, if you lend things like this you shouldn't expect them to come back in the same condition

catratmeow · 31/01/2021 11:15

I'd never have expected sibling to send something that large by courier.

What sort of state were you expecting the seat to be in after it's been used by two toddlers? These things aren't built to last. You'd have been better off letting them keep it and getting a new one

Maves · 31/01/2021 11:17

So you have other threads listing multiple things that have come back fucked...yet here you are 🤷🏻‍♀️

HikeForward · 31/01/2021 11:24

It was £280 half of that is still £140 which is more expensive than a cheap seat

It was £280 NEW, but used car seats have very little re-sell value. Especially when used by 2 babies! It’s like prams, people spend £500 on a state of the art one, then try to sell it for £250 and wonder why nobody wants it.

The sibling and his wife didn’t ruin the seat, they used it and returned it by courier (at the sister’s insistence) and it was damaged in transit. Very unreasonable to charge them for that!

JellyBabiesFan · 31/01/2021 11:26

Well I am completely bemused by this thread. Apparently nowadays if you lend something out you cannot expect it back in a usable condition. Since when did people become incapable of looking after things? No wonder there is so much landfill.

diddl · 31/01/2021 11:26

I would think that a how often it was being used would be consideration-plus was it supposed to be a stop gap until they bought their own?

It sounds as if they might as well have sent some money rather than pay for a courier.

So now you both need a new car seat??

No good deed...

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.