Who should pay?

[Fudgewhizz]

Scenario: Sibling A lent Sibling B a car seat (a good one) to help them out when they had a baby, as money was tight. It was made clear that they would need it back when they had another child.

Sibling A had another child and asked for car seat back, giving several months' notice (obviously). Sibling B had been using seat for 18 months by this point. Covid hit, car seat couldn't be returned in person so needed to be couriered.

It took Sibling B another six months to get round to sending the seat, citing not having found a replacement seat / big enough box to send in / too expensive to send / too busy. Finally got round to sending it (had had it two years). In the meantime, Sibling A has been using car seat that is about to expire (apparently they have a shelf life, after which time the plastic degrades) and will soon be outgrown.

Car seat arrived filthy, with part of the harness worn away due to incorrect usage (twisted belt causing friction in the wrong place so badly fraying), and inadequately packed. Has clearly been chucked around by couriers - standard, and should have been packed better as this is to be expected. Had no padding round it and had obviously been rattling round in the box. Dirt and potentially harness could have been resolved (if harnesses available as a spare part), seat being thrown around cannot as there's no telling what unseen damage has been done (which is why they advise to replace seat if it's been in even a minor accident).

Sibling B is refusing to contribute at all to cost of new seat, citing money issues and that it's not their responsibility at all, and they've already spent money sending it back. Sibling A also has money issues and can't really afford to replace a seat that they were counting on using and would have been able to had it been packed properly (or if they'd not lent it in the first place - lesson learned there).

I mean, it's obvious which sibling I am, but who is right? Who should have paid for sending it back, and should sibling B offer to contribute to a new seat? Wear and tear and dirt fair enough, seat unusable I think not so much.

It must be said I never borrow anything from anyone. I’m a slapdash kind of person so I cba to have to worry about looking after it. I just say no thanks and either do without, buy cheap or buy second hand. Any of those are preferable to the hassle of having to be mindful of someone else’s item.

You get the odd post on here from people who have lent out baby clothes and get all chewed up when they aren’t returned in full and in mint condition. I think they’re very unreasonable.
To me, a car seat is in the same category. It gets USED.

B is in the wrong.

If you borrow something you should look after it.
Sending something you borrowed back filthy and 6 months after it was needed bacj is a very rude thing to do.

To send it back without even bothering to pack it and ensure it will be safe for his own nephew or neice to use when it gets there is pretty unforgivable.

We were lent a car seat as a spare for my DM's car. It was used maybe 3 times and has now gone back to its original owner.
I stripped it down, cleaned the covers and checked it was all working before returning it.
They did us a favour and saved us having to buy a new seat, why on earth would I repay them by effectively destroying the seat.

Did he ask to borrow it or did you offer?
I don't see how you can make him contribute to a new one unfortunately but at least you know to never lend anything again.

Pictish, I agree.

I was pressured by my mum to lend a very expensive item to my brother, which I did on the same proviso as the op, that I’d get it back.

I never did.

Lesson learnt. I never learnt anything again.

Plus. I was made to feel I had to be to bloody grateful for stuff people lent me when I had my first. And it wasn’t stuff I’d have chosen but I was asking single parent and very very young, so I was made to feel I had to take it and use it and be grateful.

I have ishoos in that department. 😁

A single parent. Not asking.

MusicWithRocksIn1t

But if it’s not a spare it’s not going to be in the same condition in which it was lent. I agree he should have washed it. But realistically, two years of daily or near-daily use is going to mean a judgement call about further use. Not from a safety point of view, necessarily - some people would just see it as worn and old. I haven’t seen it so I don’t know.

Sibling B is in the wrong. If someone lends you something then you take care of it and return it in decent condition. Its just basic decency.

The car seat is at least 4 years old. It has been used for 2 children. It’s value is negligible.

To return it pre COVID would have involved a 5 hour car journey. Even if that is there and back, that’s a significant cost.

To return it by courier would have been equally expensive.

The cost of returning this item was always too much if both households are strapped for cash. The sensible thing to do would be have asked for a contribution equal to the cost of any courier or the journey.

@pictish yes, I agree that in an ideal world you just don't lend stuff like this. I know I wouldn't have done. However if you are involved in a lending/borrowing situation you lend in good faith and the borrower should do their utmost to look after the items that aren't theirs. Wear and tear happens, accidents happen. Decent people feel bad about that and try to come to a solution that both parties are happy with (so maybe they can't afford to replace it, but will go halves in a situation like this).

I think the OP has learned a valuable lesson about lending things. I know I wouldn't lend baby things, especially expensive items I wanted back. But she isn't unreasonable to have done so in good faith, expecting her brother to take good care of them. To borrow something and treat it badly just makes someone a bit of a dick in my opinion.

I just think most people painting the OP as some awful person for having the temerity to try and do a nice thing, and expect her possessions to be cared for, would be singing a different tune if they'd lent something of theirs to a family member who subsequently ruined it

I would forget it, and ever lend anything again. To be fair 2 years usage, I would assume it was going to return dirty. He cannot pay for a brand new seat when he got it second hand in the first place. Perhaps ask for £50 towards a new one? If he refuses then you leave it.

How the buggering hell is a car seat a consumable?
It gets dirty. Food, puke and shit on it potentially. Straps can fray. Buckles can crack. Plastic can degrade.

Or let’s say B had a car accident and the seat needs replacing. B takes the cash and instead of spending it on a newborn seat, sensibly spends it on a next stage seat so their child can use it longer, maybe till age 4/5. Would A expect the new seat to be handed over, even if B’s child was still using it?

So you used it for two years, your sister used it for two years and you want to use it again. I wouldn't expect to use it again regardless of how it was packed. You would be much better off with a cheap new one than an old expensive one. If you can afford it by a budget seat and forget it.

I wouldn't use it now if it's been bumped around by the courier. I would be annoyed they didn't take better care of it but I'd just chalk it up to a lesson learbed. They don't get lent stuff in the future.

If I lent something to my sibling and it's been over 2 years, I wouldn't expect it back in good condition, especially something that you use daily. I would just forget about it and buy a new one, or if I was really sure I needed them again in few years, I wouldn't lent
a car seat out. I won't know how it will be used and if it's safe to use after such a long time.

Once the courier/Covid situation was brought into the mix you should have realised it was fruitless to try and get it back. Even if it was in immaculate condition when your brother had finished using the seat it would be too risky to actually use. Packaging a car seat without the original polystyrene etc would be very tricky.

"It took Sibling B another six months to get round to sending the seat, citing not having found a replacement seat / big enough box to send in / too expensive to send / too busy"
Is it possible that during this period that your brother was trying to make you realise that is wasn't a good idea for his to send the seat through the post and you didn't listen to what he was saying? I would have wanted to replace the seat before I sent yours back because then I could have used the box it came in. And he's right, it was expensive to send.

I think B is more unreasonable. I'm amazed by the people saying A is entitled etc. Sure B shouldn't have to pay full price since it wasn't new but OP even said she asked for half the cost. Also if you're told the item will be needed back you should try to take care of it as best you can. Sure wear and tear are expected but don't send it back dirty and broken beyond use. If it's at that stage don't delay and just tell OP what state it's in.

You shouldn't use a second hand car seat anyway. You shouldn't lend something you want back in the same condition. You need to buy a new car seat.

How was he expected to return it? Was he given the original box and all the original packaging? Unless he was, it was never going to be met back safely.

It was£280 - half of that is still £140 which is more expensive than a cheap seat.

I can see both sides. I think the op is right to be annoyed but I don’t even know where I’d get a box big enough to post a car seat in, plus if the op had been going on (and on) about getting it back, her brother might have been at the fucked off stage of just get it back to her.

Plus, as I said, very often when people lend or give things they come with emotional strings, and I absolutely hate that. It really gets my back up because of my experience with my eldest.

If I was the op I’d try to draw a line under it and just another car seat.

I think using the carseat for a third time is pushing it. Really you shouldn't use a second hand car seat even if its your siblings. I don't think you should expect it in great condition after so long.

However, he should have taken more care of it and sent it back properly.

OP, it wasn't very nice of your brother and he's been entitled and ungrateful about it. But there's a lot of grey areas of he could have should have and frankly I'd let it go and buy a new one for your child's safety. Can your parents help out or loan you the cost?^
^
But never lend him anything again nor hand down other baby items. People don't get to behave badly over a loan without consequences.

Just let it go. How much was it? Find one on sale online or something. If you lend something out don't expect to reuse it when you get it back. You never know with wear and tear.

Plus it's not worth arguing about/stressing over.

I do think the unexpected barriers caused by the long impact of Covid have made this more problematic

@Fudgewhizz

Scenario: Sibling A lent Sibling B a car seat (a good one) to help them out when they had a baby, as money was tight. It was made clear that they would need it back when they had another child.

Sibling A had another child and asked for car seat back, giving several months' notice (obviously). Sibling B had been using seat for 18 months by this point. Covid hit, car seat couldn't be returned in person so needed to be couriered.

It took Sibling B another six months to get round to sending the seat, citing not having found a replacement seat / big enough box to send in / too expensive to send / too busy. Finally got round to sending it (had had it two years). In the meantime, Sibling A has been using car seat that is about to expire (apparently they have a shelf life, after which time the plastic degrades) and will soon be outgrown.

Car seat arrived filthy, with part of the harness worn away due to incorrect usage (twisted belt causing friction in the wrong place so badly fraying), and inadequately packed. Has clearly been chucked around by couriers - standard, and should have been packed better as this is to be expected. Had no padding round it and had obviously been rattling round in the box. Dirt and potentially harness could have been resolved (if harnesses available as a spare part), seat being thrown around cannot as there's no telling what unseen damage has been done (which is why they advise to replace seat if it's been in even a minor accident).

Sibling B is refusing to contribute at all to cost of new seat, citing money issues and that it's not their responsibility at all, and they've already spent money sending it back. Sibling A also has money issues and can't really afford to replace a seat that they were counting on using and would have been able to had it been packed properly (or if they'd not lent it in the first place - lesson learned there).

I mean, it's obvious which sibling I am, but who is right? Who should have paid for sending it back, and should sibling B offer to contribute to a new seat? Wear and tear and dirt fair enough, seat unusable I think not so much.

With the price of the courier and all the hassle it might have been better just to buy a new one for yourself. I know you said you had money issues but a courier seems a bit extreme, I would have just cut my losses to be honest. It sounds really stressful reminding brother to send it, waiting for it, asking again - just awkward all round.

Jesus, some people have been unnecessarily nasty on this thread.