Who should pay?

[Fudgewhizz]

Scenario: Sibling A lent Sibling B a car seat (a good one) to help them out when they had a baby, as money was tight. It was made clear that they would need it back when they had another child.

Sibling A had another child and asked for car seat back, giving several months' notice (obviously). Sibling B had been using seat for 18 months by this point. Covid hit, car seat couldn't be returned in person so needed to be couriered.

It took Sibling B another six months to get round to sending the seat, citing not having found a replacement seat / big enough box to send in / too expensive to send / too busy. Finally got round to sending it (had had it two years). In the meantime, Sibling A has been using car seat that is about to expire (apparently they have a shelf life, after which time the plastic degrades) and will soon be outgrown.

Car seat arrived filthy, with part of the harness worn away due to incorrect usage (twisted belt causing friction in the wrong place so badly fraying), and inadequately packed. Has clearly been chucked around by couriers - standard, and should have been packed better as this is to be expected. Had no padding round it and had obviously been rattling round in the box. Dirt and potentially harness could have been resolved (if harnesses available as a spare part), seat being thrown around cannot as there's no telling what unseen damage has been done (which is why they advise to replace seat if it's been in even a minor accident).

Sibling B is refusing to contribute at all to cost of new seat, citing money issues and that it's not their responsibility at all, and they've already spent money sending it back. Sibling A also has money issues and can't really afford to replace a seat that they were counting on using and would have been able to had it been packed properly (or if they'd not lent it in the first place - lesson learned there).

I mean, it's obvious which sibling I am, but who is right? Who should have paid for sending it back, and should sibling B offer to contribute to a new seat? Wear and tear and dirt fair enough, seat unusable I think not so much.

Op, you really don't like hearing you're in the wrong do you?

If this is your attitude in general then your brother is probably just sick of your whinging and drama queen-ing.

@PlanDeRaccordement Which? categorises some seats as Don't Buys because they are hard to install by seatbelt so the margin of error is greater and they're more likely to not be put in properly. I don't want an Every Stage so I haven't looked at why it's on that list. There are plenty of seats that go from newborn to age 4, and a fair number that go to age 6. Although I wasn't recommending any particular seat, merely pointing out that they exist. If you want more info there are some very good car seat advice groups on Facebook. HTH with your research, which you are clearly doing to try to show me up

Sibling A should ask for their money back from whoever sold them the second car seat which apparently only lasted a few months before the plastic degraded.

@HeddaGarbled I can't really complain about a ten year old car seat having reached its expiration point, can I? And I can't go back to mothercare and complain that we have now discovered it sat on their shelf for two years before we bought it, because they've gone bust.

@AbbeyBelfast I'm not the only person who thinks I'm the in the right on this thread. I agree that I shouldn't have lent it to him, but that wasn't my question. And I don't think it gives him the right to be a total arse to me.

@Squirrelblanket

I think you shouldn't have let her borrow it if you were expecting it back in perfect condition. It's an item which is bound to have lots of wear and tear. And then there's the safety issues you mention. I have no idea about those but if it is an issue it's even more reason not have lent it out in the first place.

I know you were trying to help but I think you're unreasonable.

This

After 4 years and two children using it I would have considered it to be at the end of its lifespan.

I wouldn’t use the same seat for a third child, but this may well be daft of me!

@Fudgewhizz

The reason the Joie Every Stage is classed as dont buy is not because “hard to install” but as I said, because of its poor safety rating
Full safety alert below:
Product alert
This child car seat has passed the regulatory tests required by ECE R44/04 to be sold as suitable for children from 9-36kg. But in our own tests, which are conducted at higher speeds and forces than the standard requires, this seat still scores poorly for frontal-impact results when used in Group 1 mode, whether the seat is belted in or the Isofix connectors are used.

Our tests generally show that multi-group seats that try to do too much compromise on other features - and the Joie Every Stage FX is no exception. It does its job as a Group 2/3 high-backed booster seat when belted in, and gains an acceptable score for a Group 0+ and an extended rear-facing car seat when belted in. But it scores poorly in frontal-impact crash tests, when used as a forward-facing Group 1 car seat, or when the Isofix is used. The overall total test score is limited to 42%. Any car seat scoring 45% or less will become a Which? Don't Buy.

[quote Fudgewhizz]@HeddaGarbled I can't really complain about a ten year old car seat having reached its expiration point, can I? And I can't go back to mothercare and complain that we have now discovered it sat on their shelf for two years before we bought it, because they've gone bust.

@AbbeyBelfast I'm not the only person who thinks I'm the in the right on this thread. I agree that I shouldn't have lent it to him, but that wasn't my question. And I don't think it gives him the right to be a total arse to me.[/quote]
How on earth could you possibly know it was on their shelf for two years before being sold? You talk some nonsense you really do.

After 18 months use surely you couldn't expect any more than a worn seat. I don't think B should have to contribute to a new car seat. It was a daft idea to have it sent anyway. That would probably have been quite expensive. You do sound a bit of a fuss pot. Sorry.

HTH with your research, which you are clearly doing to try to show me up grin

@Fudgewhizz, no I’m not harping on car seat safety to try and show you up but to try and get you to understand that using a car seat for 3 successive children is not safe. God forbid, you sew the tears and straps, clean the car seat, pop your new baby in it and then get in a car accident and your baby is seriously injured or killed because you can’t prioritise their safety.

[quote Mammaaof]@Fudgewhizz most think your wrong and I think it's disgusting to reuse a car seat on a third child. You clearly couldn't afford another child as your scrounging a bloody car seat and causing arguments, your brother is probably sick of your moaning. Buy a bloody new car seat and a safe one at that!![/quote]
Yup!

@PlanDeRaccordement

HTH with your research, which you are clearly doing to try to show me up grin

@Fudgewhizz, no I’m not harping on car seat safety to try and show you up but to try and get you to understand that using a car seat for 3 successive children is not safe. God forbid, you sew the tears and straps, clean the car seat, pop your new baby in it and then get in a car accident and your baby is seriously injured or killed because you can’t prioritise their safety.

Exactly. It's one thing to be a cheapskate willing to argue with your own brother over a crappy old car seat but another level to compromise your innocent wee baby's safety because you can't be bothered to spring £100 on a new safe seat.

I think if i ‘lent’ a 2nd hair car seat to someone for 2 years, I wouldnt expect it back for a newborn in a useable condition

Haven't read the replies but person A is in the wrong. First of all, if B had to find 'a replacement seat' that means they were still using it, which makes demanding it back really unpleasant. The damage and dirt is just normal wear and tear, which you'd expect when it's on child number three, and you shouldn't even have asked for it back at this stage. Having it couriered was always going to be a risk, as you don't know how it's been treated in transit. Your sibling must be really fed up with you and wish they'd never accepted this 'kindness'.

I don't think whatever kind of damage a courier could do to it is anything like a car accident, in terms of forces. People drop their car seats and don't buy new ones.

YANBU to expect it back promptly and in as good condition as possible (e.g. replacing the worn out part and a basic clean), but YABU to say you can't use it.

If they had it for 18mths, took 6mths to return it then 2 years of filthy child use is going to happen.
They should have cleaned it, most come with detachable covers.

It's a weird thing to lend and you didn't say an exact date to return it so they never bought one.
I'd have just sold it to them after 2 years use.

But...if you look at this from an agreement point of view,
You agreed to lend until you had another child,
You gave months notice,
They took 6mths, sent it filthy and not packaged properly.

Did they offer any other solution prior to the return? Did they say we are still using it?

Whether or not one should reuse a car seat for a third child is one thing - and personally I wouldn't especially as its use for the second child had not been by me so I wouldn't know if it had been in any accidents or not.

The other thing is, you have learnt not to lend your sibling anything in future that you wish to have returned in a timely manner & in good condition. If you lend him anything again you have to do so knowing that you may no be able to use it again yourself.

You may just have to put this down to experience and move on especially if he is being unpleasant about it.

I wouldn't lend a car seat anyway, ever, or borrow one. Relative or not.

In the meantime, Sibling A has been using car seat that is about to expire (apparently they have a shelf life, after which time the plastic degrades) and will soon be outgrown.

I can't really complain about a ten year old car seat having reached its expiration point, can I? And I can't go back to mothercare and complain that we have now discovered it sat on their shelf for two years before we bought it, because they've gone bust

Ok, so you had two car seats, one 10 years’ old and one newer and you leant the newer one to your sister and have been using the older one. Is that right?

Not doubting you, just confused.

@AbbeyBelfast all car seats have a label on them stating the date of manufacture, so that you can tell when it expires. We know when we bought it. Hence knowing it was in a warehouse for two years before purchase - which was confirmed by the seat manufacturer when I checked with them to see if I could still use it. So no, I'm not talking rubbish.

@PlanDeRaccordement why are you giving me a safety report on a seat I've never owned and have no interest in buying?

To those saying I'm 'disgusting' or a 'cheapskate' for wanting to use a four-year-old seat - the seat is designed to last for four years at least, has a shelf life of ten years if well looked-after. The latter being the key, and it seems I'm in the minority on doing that one! I look after things carefully because I can't afford to keep replacing them. I'm glad you're in the privileged position of not having to do that.

Person A needs to get over it. Annoying but one of those things.

@HeddaGarbled yes that's right. The one they've had is suitable birth to age 4, ours is birth to 13kg (a lot sooner) and about to expire. The lending was a 'to save you some money so you're not buying everything at once you're welcome to use ours until we need it back' (for which we gave several months' notice).

@Fudgewhizz instead of arguing the toss on here, when you asked for people's opinions, and you didn't like that most people disagreed with you. Why don't you use the time to look for a clean, hygienic car seat for your new child. I feel that would be better use of your brain now don't you?

Carseats aren't that expensive especially somewhere like argos, tesco, Halfords, asda. I got a Bretix one for about 20 pounds as it was a display one when I had my oldest. My ex ended up keeping it and I ended up getting a cheaper one.