In-laws have declined the vaccine... AIBU?

[HotGlueGun]

So my in-laws (early 70s) have declined to have the vaccine. They are in our childcare bubble and so we see them regularly. They also ask us to do their shopping. WIBU to a) stop doing their shopping for them and b) reduce/ stop their contact with the kids? I'm really cross about but appreciate that they have free will and it's their choice. But resent having to do shopping for them... it's like they are happy for us to be at risk and aren't prepared to take reasonable steps to reduce their vulnerability and eliminate the risk for themselves/ the wider community.

@Bahhhhhumbug

To those saying having vaccine or not doesn't impact on others only on the refusers, l disagree. If a significant proportion of the population refuse it, how will we ever get back to normal life without masks and social distancing and all cafes/restaurants being allowed to open etc.? There will still be people in grave danger from this virus wandering amongst us (i.e. the refusers) and no doubt the extreme left wingers will be wringing their hands and saying 'ah but its their choice, their body' etc so we still have to protect them and protect the NHS so need to still keep all the SD and PPE and lockdowns of various levels in place, because these people are still at risk. They are stopping the rest of us from moving forward by choosing not to protect themselves.

Just a few points on this:

• UK has highest rates of people intending to take the vaccine so this is an invented problem
• extreme left wingers (all twelve of them ) are not libertarians, it is the right wing who are more in favour of freedom of choice over vaccine, the left is more likely to propose compulsory vaccines
• the tiny percentage of people not vaccinating is far less of a problem than the fact variants may emerge that are not prevented by the vaccine - so I will be more nervous about people travelling than a few without vaccines

extreme left wingers (all twelve of them hmm) are not libertarians, it is the right wing who are more in favour of freedom of choice over vaccine, the left is more likely to propose compulsory vaccines

I’m a left-wing libertarian. I’m weird, I know.

@AStudyinPink

extreme left wingers (all twelve of them hmm) are not libertarians, it is the right wing who are more in favour of freedom of choice over vaccine, the left is more likely to propose compulsory vaccines

I’m a left-wing libertarian. I’m weird, I know.

You are not, therefore, extreme

You are not, therefore, extreme

I’m relatively extreme on both fronts. There is no spectrum between them.

To be honest I do my parents shopping, and if they refused the vaccine for any reason other than genuine health related reasons I would let them get their own shopping, or they could sort out delivery. Not sure about contact with kids as I don't have any that young, I think I'd leave them to make that decision. Up to them if they want to risk it.

You'll have to try to be kind, but have much less contact- if any, and suggest they find another way to shop.

I would stop seeing them entirely for my own health's sake. This doesn't have to be some drastic ultimatum- just don't hurry to see them, make excuses, and soon it will be months you haven't seen them, then more months.

@AStudyinPink

You are not, therefore, extreme

I’m relatively extreme on both fronts. There is no spectrum between them.

You can define your politics as you wish of course.

@AStudyinPink

But none of this goes any way to gainsaying the point I was making about these choices we all make for ourselves. Some of them are morally wrong, for instance refusing the vaccine. Not because I say so (I am no moral arbiter!), but because refusing the vaccine harms other people.

Nope. My keeping both my own kidneys would be wrong, by this rationale. You don’t owe others to the extent that you must be prepared to harm your own health. Whether the vaccine does that isn’t the point, because we can only make that decision as individuals.

Keeping your kidneys: good. A nice point. Germane, although many people may not see.

Your last thing, '... isn't the point, because ... ' is a non-sequitur , but never mind. You are beginning to get the idea at least.

I am afraid I have to leave for a while, childcare-bubble calls (yes, I know -- all above board and tickety-boo with .gov guidelines, letter and spirit, trust me).

I hope you do not mind, AStudyinPink, but I will leave you with some pointers rather than a full answer to your 'kidneys' idea.

1. Check out (the late) Judith Jarvis Thomson's distinction between ' Good Samaritans' and ' Minimally Decent Samaritans'. (In her seminal article, A Defense of Abortion, easy to find online (and which everyone should anyway have read by now).) Is it easy to see how to apply this distinction?

1. Also look, if you have not already done so, at ' trolleyology ' (ugh! I know!), something else down to JJT, although Philippa Foot also had a hand in its beginnings.

-- Plenty of stuff there to challenge your point if you look carefully enough.

Others, please do not castigate AstudyinPink too much for an excess of theory. That is often how things go when one takes moral questions seriously.

But, nevertheless, in spite of it all, the point we started with stands firm: we should all get a covid vaccine, just because it is the right thing to do. Please !

9toenails

I don’t need any “pointers” from you. I’m perfectly confident in my view. Cheers.

You can define your politics as you wish of course.

Indeed.

It isn’t a vaccine. A vaccine provides immunity. (This is why govt ministers refers to it as a jab in the arm)

This ‘vaccine’ does not stop transmission, does not stop you getting it. It lessens symptoms. That’s it.

I don’t understand your objections to their decision.

They are his parents OP, you shouldn’t be doing the shopping anyway.

And typical MN, your AIBU is about PIL not getting the vaccine and everyone piles on you about childcare . Ignore the idiots.

People are scared of the vaccine as well as Covid. I don’t really want my mum to have the vaccine in such an early stage either but I haven’t told her this as I don’t want it to affect her decision.
I think you’re being a bit unreasonable but that’s your choice

[quote HotGlueGun]@TatianaBis it's not irrelevant though.... that's how she gives her notions credence. As though she has the inside story because she used to work for one of the companies manufacturing the vaccine.

And yes my husband does need the break from time to time.... but the ILs never have both kids at the same time. They will have the 18m old for a few hours so that my husband can homeschool my son. Or they will have the 6 year old so that my husband can spend some time with our toddler or get jobs done. It's not like we are dumping the kids and running so that we can put our feet up. Yes we could manage without the childcare but it would be to the detriment of each of our kids. Appreciate that's not "essential" in the way that providing childcare for 2 x working parents is but with the age difference in our children, it is difficult for one person (DH) to meet both of their needs on his own whilst I work. [/quote]
I have an 11 year old and a 2 year old and working as a childminder providing childcare for others from my own home. If I can do it, along with every other parent in the country so can your husband. I can’t believe you’re defending this blatant abuse of the rules to be honest.

I think you need to give them proper advice re vaccine such as printouts

Tell them that when things start to return to normal there is still a chance of it being passed to them via the kids and you as the vaccine is not 100%. You wouldn’t be comfortable having contact with them knowing you could be passing it on.

What about when you go away eventually on holidays

Even the Queen has had it so the issues she’s talking about doesn’t work

Tell her one of the vaccines doesn’t need storing in very low temperatures anyway

I feel that the vaccine issue should be looked at separately to the issue of childcare and shopping which are things families do (or should do) to help each other. If they are so easily misled by misinformation, perhaps you could provide them with more positive information to attempt to allay their fears. You should also make sure that they realise that it's up to all family members to make sure that they do everything possible to protect themselves and the wider family if there is to be any hope of getting back to normality any time soon. It sounds as though reassurance is required rather than making shopping an issue

This seems hypocritical to me. A childcare bubble is for necessary childcare and you say that you could do without their help so you’re breaking the rules.

You resent shopping for them, when frankly it’s the least you could do for people who provide you with free childcare.

I wouldn’t agree with them about the vaccine, but it's their choice. I wouldn’t withdraw familial support from them for that reason, it would be very unkind and a rather take take attitude.

Whilst I don’t understand why people would turn the vaccine down without due cause. I sure as hell wouldn’t as cretinous and vindictive as you.

Have you spoken to them about their reasoning?

Additionally, you are aware that having the vaccine doesn’t make you immune from passing it on?!?

The government guidelines do mention that childcare should be used mainly for work. See www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

HTH.

if they are refusing the vaccine then aren't they effectively saying you have to keep doing their shopping as they won't ever be able to go out as they will be vulnerable to the virus for ever??

The NHS leaflet sent out with the offer to book a vaccine says they do not yet know if it will stop you from catching or transmitting the virus. In that case I don’t see the point in risking the vaccine. You still have to obey all the rules afterwards.

Are they housebound or disabled? Why are u doing there shopping? If they cant/won't go to shops because they scared of covid tell them to get the bloody vaccine

@C49cat

The NHS leaflet sent out with the offer to book a vaccine says they do not yet know if it will stop you from catching or transmitting the virus. In that case I don’t see the point in risking the vaccine. You still have to obey all the rules afterwards.

youll have to obey the rules until more people have had the vaccine. The vaccines have ALL had to show a high degree of effectiveness. This doesnt mean that you have some sort of forcefield around you. You might still be able to transmit it to others if its on you, so after the vaccine you might still be a risk to others until they get vaccinated themselves. The risk from the vaccine is tiny. The risk from Covid continuing is huge

I’d be doing everything I could to change their minds. Mass vaccination is the only way out of this mess and they are in a high priority group so may well be hospitalised/die.
If I can’t change their minds I would try and reduce their risk, so I’d continue doing their shopping and not take round the grand kids. It’s not about punishment but about reducing their risk.
Hopefully, the vast majority will take the vaccination and reduce rates of transmission /death. Once community covid prevalence reduces (by others being vaccinated ir antibodies after exposure) it will lessen the risk that they are exposing too without having to be vaccinated.m themselves. I thinking it’s short-sighted, foolhardy and selfish...but ultimately their decision to make.