To have become a Brexiteer yesterday?

[Mentum]

I was so Remain, I was devastated when we left. But the EU trying to steal our vac and casually invoking Article 16 has really left me aghast. I can't believe they are lashing out this way, I don't understand why.

It shouldn't be forgotten that (triggering Article 16) was withdrawn just a few hours later
Given how slow the EC usually is, i thought it would take many days/weeks

Nah - things which affect everyone else take days/weeks (if not years), but when it comes to covering their own backsides we see just how fast they can move if it suits

Ironically, the thing about this being box ticked by an aide who didn't understand it is one of the few things from them which I can believe ... given the general level of incompetence it sounds about right

@IcedPurple

People fuck up, its what they do after they realise their mistake that matters.

It's not that they 'realised their mistake'. It's that the Taoiseach and Boris Johnson told them in no uncertain terms to get a grip. The EU didn't even bother to consult them in advance.

One reason i dislike Mr Johnson, he acknowledges no weaknesses or mistakes, even encouraging people to shake hands, something that cost real lives, was never apologised for.

Could you link to the apology made by the EU?

a fuck up that cost nothing? or one that cost 1000s of lives? mmmmmm let me think what is more important and i'll come back to you.

there is a glaring lack of perspective by the anti EU posters.

I don't think families who have lost loved ones who had low risk will think same, also don't we also have vaccinations to reduce the risks to others , many cev people cannot have the vaccine.

*a fuck up that cost nothing? or one that cost 1000s of lives? mmmmmm let me think what is more important and i'll come back to you.

there is a glaring lack of perspective by the anti EU posters.*

And you show a glaring inability to understand that this discussion is not about Boris Johnson. There are a million other discussion about his - many - failings elsewhere on MN. This is about the EU and their repeated failings in vaccine procurement, culminating in them playing havoc on the Irish border. If you think all of this 'costs nothing' you are clearly blind and probably not worth continuing this discussion with.

Especially as you haven't provided a link to the EU's (non-existent) apology for their dumb move, and are now trying and failing to deflect.

*a fuck up that cost nothing? or one that cost 1000s of lives? mmmmmm let me think what is more important and i'll come back to you.

there is a glaring lack of perspective by the anti EU posters*.

Im not even totally anti EU i can see benefits and non benefits to being in.
But this was done due to lack of vaccinations , the fact they haven't secured could cost lives and many eu countries have huge numbers of deaths , lots have made mistakes or maybe could of done better.
But its an ever changing pandemic and we won't know for years what was done right , could of been done better , should of been done.
The whole of europe incl uk as we are europe still allowed holidays all through summer , personally i thought they should of agreed together then to advise stay at home.
But all these countries have to try and balance their economies and many rely heavily on tourism.

Also europe seems to of really fared badly and maybe we will know why again in a few years when we understand it more.
I hope that az can get more stock asap ,and that the pfizer plant can get more so the whole of europe is in a better position , europeans will be asking questions as well , and rightly so .
Like people in uk do , if this was the other way round people would be calling for boris resignation

The EU behaved badly and stupidly. Like we've been doing for the past 4+ years.

I don't think people who voted remain did it because they thought the EU was perfect. But we'd be better off back in. The vaccine business underlines how the EU now has power over us that we handed to them.

People are allowed to have opinions and have different views
It seems on here if you vote a different way to someone else then people think it gives them a superiority over the person who voted differently.
I am so sick of lazy leaver , remaniac etc.
Be grateful we live in countries where we do have a vote and have at least a little say.
Just because someone thinks being in eu is better and someone else thinking being out is better, doesn't make one of them a better person.
I have friends who voted both ways , different backgrounds , different reasons, different understandings , but they are still all my friends as they are entitled to a vote and opinion just as much as I am.

Ah icepurple as aggressive as every it seems, tbh i try not to engage with you, too angry.
People like @donewithitalltodayandxmas are far more reasonable, able to see both sides.

who has died as a result of the EU's stupid but very short lived action? answer is no one.

and i never said the eu apologised, Mr J won't apologise or admit any mistakes have been made, eve schools being open for a day and then shut again, was never acknowledged by him or his tory supporters as a "mistake"

Compare to the anger directed at the EU? they xxxxed up, few have said they didn't, the govt has said "reset" time to let it go?
if Mr Gove can, i'm sure you could too if you really tried.

who has died as a result of the EU's stupid but very short lived action? answer is no one.

Their actions the last few days will not have helped and they have quite possibly left themselves in a worse position vaccine wise than they were a week ago.

As a Yank I never weighed in on this debate, but I do know that the US would never give up as much sovereignty to anyone as the UK did to the EU, which seemed to grow its scope over time, so I really understood the Leave position. The whole ugly incident over the AZ vaccine supply really does illustrate why it's good to be able to steer your own ship.

@bluethrough sorry to tag
Yes it is time to reset and work together going forward when possible.
I think both sides will have learnt a lot from this and who knows in time some good could come from
It.
As europeans we have been hit very hard by this virus and beating it will take working together at points.

Ah icepurple as aggressive as every it seems, tbh i try not to engage with you, too angry.

Throwing insults around isn't going to change the fact that you can't support your claims and are seeking to change the subject.

and i never said the eu apologised, Mr J won't apologise or admit any mistakes have been made, eve schools being open for a day and then shut again, was never acknowledged by him or his tory supporters as a "mistake"

Why are criticising BJ for not apologising, when he is not the subject of this discussion? While not criticising the EU for ever admitting their many mistakes, not just in the border fiasco, but throughout the entire vaccine procurement process, which has been very poorly handled from the beginning, and which may well cost lives?

Also, dismissing any valid criticism as 'anger' is a piss poor discussion tactic.

Bluethrough

Mr J?

EU fucked up on this occasion. We did the same when we tried to tear up the deal that time last year. EU is far from perfect, but it has kept peace in Europe since WW2 and if it broke up that would be a huge pity imo. Brexit is still a stupid idea with no plan, so no I would still call myself a remainer but that doesn't mean EU is always right, of course not

@Tobleronehouses

I think that we need to hear from AZ now. People are forgetting that the root of this problem lies with them not being able to supply goods as promised.

It can't be as simple as "one factory in Belgium isn't functioning" because the manufacture of vaccines involves multiple processes in different locations - the UK AZ vaccine is apparently bottled in Germany - so a bit more clarity from AZ would be welcome.

No I do t think we do need to hear from them or the U.K. stance on it. It should be sorted out behind closed doors with the professionals - people that actually know what’s happening. Not everything needs to be given to the mob to tear apart and have arm chair scientists get confused and start attacking people on the internet their ‘knowledge’

Tbh I’m sick of it. That contract being published on line is an embarrassment. SM has been the scourge of society since Brexit started. Politicians are now throwing tit bits to the public to let them fight it out and win their battles for them. It’s all just a fucking puppet show. They all get paid way too much for this shit.

We really have turned in to the mob.

@HeyHeyImABeLeaver

Senior aides didn't recognise the significance? 🤔

I’m not buying into this whole ‘it was a mistake’ In my opinion (for what it’s worth) they had every intention of going ahead with this and riding rough shod to get what they wanted/needed. I would think it was Barnier stepping in that made UVDL come to her senses not the phone calls made by ROI/NI/U.K.

Agree totally. You don't just trigger an Article like you switch channel on the TV, it requires several layers of sign-off, there is almost endless governance and boxes to tick (especially at the Commission - just ask anyone who's worked there). They meant to do it and only backtracked when Barnier intervened, probably sniffing his own opportunity to look presidential. It's staggeringly scary that such idiots are in charge.

If we had remained in the EU, with their utter incompetence and that of a remainer government, no one would have been vaccinated in the UK!

Toptotoe I would think Barnier would have been raging behind the scenes, having spent 4 years stressing the importance of keeping the GFA agreement in tact using Ireland as a pawn to keep us in the EU for the EU to then flush it down the toilet before the ink was barely dry on the trade deal. Would have made him look a complete hypocrite into the bargain.

Ireland is covering the EU's arse by referring to this as a mistake. If Britain had done it, they would be referring to us as irresponsible/deliberately provocative.

who has died as a result of the EU's stupid but very short lived action? answer is no one.

Well people will die from the vaccination mess.

Plus are things only bad if they result in death. Quite a low bar there!

But people will die because of the mess. They are getting vaccinated slower.

@Blessex

But people will die because of the mess. They are getting vaccinated slower.

In the context of the idiocy art16 triggering was, no one, it was a few hours of nothing practical on the actual border, A.Foster saying it was an act of aggression was silly and dangerous.

I think i have criticised the Eu on many occasions over this.

There is a worldwide shortage on vaccine, as i understand it, the AZ plants in the eu, have produced a lower than expected yield, presumably, had they produced what was planned, the EU would now be expecting their allocation of vaccine? and none of this would have happened?

what i do find bizarre is the over 65's nonsense from Macron and from Germany's regulator.
I get the lack of trial data but subsequent lab tests show very good antibody response in older people.

Macron is being highly highly irresponsible. It is not a politicians job to contradict the EMA and MHRA who are the experts who have signed off the jab. He really will have blood on his hands because it will be the most vulnerable who now may not have the jab. What on earth is he thinking?

On the supply issues in the EU - I know what you are saying. But seriously, it is always tight setting up a new supply chain. If the EU hadn’t spent 3 additional months screwing the price down (on a not for profit vaccine) then AZ would have been free to get the manufacturing going and supply issues sorted. Exactly as they did with the U.K. Our supply chains were also shaky but had 3 more months to get sorted.