AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

Actually I think on balance the world is worse for young women than it was due to internet pressure. But there is the illusion of freedom and equality.

[quote JoodyBlue]@RootyT00t I'm about to go. I'm really glad to have been able to chat with you about this. Given a lot to these convos last couple of days. :)[/quote]
You've certainly given me food for thought.

Please don't ever think that I don't have the utmost respect for your generation who fought for us.

@Sheleg

How much are Stonewall paying you for this, Rooty??

You're fighting for the wrong side, mate.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

You haven't experienced how shit societies truly are to women. You know why? Because my generation fought for that for you

I think that's one of the biggest problems. The younger generations don't have a fucking clue. They think their rights are safe because they've never known them not to be.
They live under the illusion they are seen as equal to men. Poland proves how fast those rights are taken away by men who want their power back.
It's what's happening on a global scale. They just can't see it yet.

I will keep fighting for my daughters, and everyone else's too and even you Rooty.

💜

Because they might not want to be in what is effectively the trans changing room?

I dont want to be in the trans changing room either. I'm a woman. I want to be in the women's changing room. The one with only women in. Why would a transperson want to make women feel uncomfortable .... and unsafe? Surely the honourable thing would be to accept that yes, their presence makes women feel unsafe and therefore a third space is a good accommodation of their demands.

So I meant emotionally as in how they feel has changed whether that's female to male or make to female.

How do you know?

Are you arguing that men and women have different emotions?

Aren't we all human? Do we not all have access to the same emotions, until gender policing gives girls the message that they're not allowed to access too much anger and boys that they're not allowed too much fear or sadness or doubt?

What are you saying? How can one be a woman emotionally? What does that mean?

I'm assuming Rooty is all for gender equality in government, leadership roles etc.
If our government (or your workplace, or Board, perhaps) were 100% male-bodied people, 50% of whom identified as women although went through childhood, puberty, and years of adulthood as male (for this example), would you consider this gender equality in the same way as if it were 50% non-trans women?
Would you feel differently if they had been 'living as a woman' (and I'd love to know what that is...) from childhood?

Just musing really on whether you see any difference.

I said over an hour ago I was bowing out yet people are still continuing to pick out sentences and critique me. I only returned to acknowledge Jooby's sentiments which as you can clearly read I took on board.

HIding the thread now.

YANBU

Women should me able to ask questions about how social norms and laws impact their daily existence and that of children.

Funny, I got sent over to MN after a dear person in my life said he was trans because he suffers from dysphoria, and I wanted to learn more. He says he has a mental illness (dysphoria) and knows it would be disrespectful to use women's toilets. So...if trans people talk about about this issue, why can't women? Baffling.

Funny, I got sent over to MN after a dear person in my life said he was trans because he suffers from dysphoria, and I wanted to learn more. He says he has a mental illness (dysphoria) and knows it would be disrespectful to use women's toilets. So...if trans people talk about about this issue, why can't women? Baffling.

This demonstrates part of the problem - the ‘real’ people with dysphoria (many ‘old school’ transsexuals) know that they were born male (hence trans) and respect women’s single sex spaces. I follow a number on sm, all of whom are campaigning AGAINST self id and males accessing women’s spaces.

Unfortunately, they have been used as a justification for this new wave of trans activists who claim they ARE female (they’re not) and demand full access to all women’s spaces and services rendering them mixed sex and excluding the women who can’t share (religious reasons, trauma, privacy etc) Many of these male people have no intention of surgery and some don’t even ‘transition their appearance’ so look fully male. These people would have absolutely no issue in the men’s toilets yet they still demand to use the women’s - why would that be?

Why would the males who identify as women in a part time basis be demanding access to the women’s facilities?

I have been looking into this for some time now and it occurs to me that I have never actually seen any evidence transwomen are in more danger in the men’s toilets. I have seen reports of many attacks BY transwomen (although the media does its best to hide them) but none against transwomen (the current media bias would be reporting that vigorously. Have you noticed that when transwomen are a victim of crime, their trans status is reported, when they are the perpetrator it is recorded as committed by a female - you can usually tell by the lack of photo)

To anyone in this conversation that thinks the governments announcement last Sept that self id would not be allowed means that the issue is settled should be aware that there is a very vigorous and stealthy campaign ongoing to bring in self I’d. Liz Truss is standing firm but other government depts like the Women and Equalities Select Committee are openly biased against women’s rights and are trying to bring it in quietly through the consultation they are running on the GRA so write to your MP, ask questions, respond to the consultations they keep having (they may keep asking until they get the answer they want).

Nobody on FWR is transphobic, in fact there is much support for the plight of genuine trans people especially the transmen who often get forgotten. What it boils down to though is: Women need single sex spaces for safety and privacy. It is not women’s job to sort out the consequences of male violence on males. We do not want the government to make it easier for any male predator to access women in enclosed spaces where they may be undressed. We do not want the Government to redefine ’woman’ to include males (they’ve already done it in Scotland re women’s political representation).

Rooty I get where you are coming from.

You are a young, presumably western woman, you believe you have the same rights as men and because you are fortunate enough not to have suffered abuse at the hands of men, or discrimination because of your biological reality it doesn't matter to you that stating TWAW has the impact of reducing women's rights.

I used to think like you in my twenties, since then I have experienced discrimination based on the material reality of being a woman, I lost a job because I was pregnant, yes there are laws to stop employers from doing that in this country but that didn't stop the hurt I felt. I have been raped. Because I have parented disabled children and because my earning opportunities are lower because of the gaps in my employment due to giving birth I am the one who has given up work to care for the children. This results in inequality in financial terms and pension rights when I get older. Because I am a biological who has had the misfortune to parent disabled children.

What you are advocating for is 'being kind'. It doesn't take into account the boundaries of other women and girls. My daughter who is autistic will not be able to use mixed sex facilities, but that doesn't matter to you does it, because transpeople will be unhappy. So what you are saying is that either my daughter should educated herself to feel comfortable or stay at home. You are saying the same to women who can't share facilities with adult human males for religious reasons. And to anyone other woman with boundaries. You are saying that women don't matter.

The upshot of changing the meaning of the word woman is that legal protections based on biology cease to have meaning.

Do you reject the fact that women and girls have, throughout the ages, faced discrimination based upon the biological fact that they are women?

I would also urge you to understand that you are in the comfortable position of believing that men and women are equal precisely because of women like us in previous generations who have fought for the provisions that you are happy to give away. Don't take that away for future generations.

wish mumsnet had an edit button ' Because I am a biological woman

I would also urge you to understand that you are in the comfortable position of believing that men and women are equal precisely because of women like us in previous generations who have fought for the provisions that you are happy to give away. Don't take that away for future generations

And also don't fall into the trap of feeling that we should wait for everything else "more important" to be solved before it's appropriate for women to tackle this. No one is thinking of women when they remove the word we have tindescrive ourselves. No one is thinking about women or girls when males are allowed to enter sporting competitions and take spots from girls and women. And yet we are supoosed tonfight for or solve every other problem and worry about how we make males feel befire we can speak out.

Why? If things were so important arebtbother people also doing something about it? Why does it always fall to women to solve eveeyone else's problems first.

Seens everyone knows what a women is when they want to tell certain people to shut up and be kind

Re. Transgender being extended to include not only those who are dysphoric. @RootyT00t on the previous thread you said
"any poster who thinks we should hark back to the days of it being a mental health disorder should not be allowed to discuss these topics on social media."

Merely hanging the definition does not stop some from still having this mental health issue!
This is like extending the definition of audio hallucinations to include people who can hear music through their headphones when they play music, or extending bulimia to include people with tummy bugs.
It doesn't alleviate the suffering of those with the mental health condition... I do hope you are being obtuse!

On the thread on JK Rowling, Mumsnet have deleted my post where in questioned who is behind prescribing off label puberty blockers and where does this money trail lead to!

I am mighty pissed off Mumsnet

Not sure if this link has been posted, I am putting it wherever it seems to fit and it really does fit here.

It is long. But compelling as it relies on bringing together the issues. I like that it does include many trans activists who are often hated by the extremist trans activists.

But it is a good summary if you are new or if you have been following for a while.

@RootyT00t this might be interesting for you too.

For any lurkers thinking were all just meanies, take a look at this.
A women's endometriosis group told they must no longer use 'genderered' language to talk about themselves. Not allowed to use the words woman, women, ladies, girls, gals etc etc but are allowed the word 'guys' because apparently male terms are not gendered!!!!

That's 6000 women on a female health care support site not allowed to call themselves women. All because 1 person is trans.

Is that person entitled to support? Of course?
Should that 1 person be allowed to dictate how every other woman refers to themselves? NO!!!
It is not up to us to alter the language we use to describe ourselves just because a tiny number are 'triggered' by sex based words.

This shit is being sold as 'inclusive' yet it excludes the majority who cant even discuss their shared experiences without having their language policed.

So how are we meant to fight for female sex based rights, women's rights, sex based healthcare if were not permitted to even use our universally accepted descriptors.

It's not gendered language it's sexed language

It is not up to us to alter the language we use to describe ourselves just because a tiny number are 'triggered' by sex based words

So after decades of not being able to talk about periods or endo using words we wanted so as not to offend men (so only in women only publications etc), now we can talk about it but again only using language that is dictated by someone else, lest they are offended.

Progress!

@lifeturnsonadime

Rooty I get where you are coming from.

You are a young, presumably western woman, you believe you have the same rights as men and because you are fortunate enough not to have suffered abuse at the hands of men, or discrimination because of your biological reality it doesn't matter to you that stating TWAW has the impact of reducing women's rights.

I used to think like you in my twenties, since then I have experienced discrimination based on the material reality of being a woman, I lost a job because I was pregnant, yes there are laws to stop employers from doing that in this country but that didn't stop the hurt I felt. I have been raped. Because I have parented disabled children and because my earning opportunities are lower because of the gaps in my employment due to giving birth I am the one who has given up work to care for the children. This results in inequality in financial terms and pension rights when I get older. Because I am a biological who has had the misfortune to parent disabled children.

What you are advocating for is 'being kind'. It doesn't take into account the boundaries of other women and girls. My daughter who is autistic will not be able to use mixed sex facilities, but that doesn't matter to you does it, because transpeople will be unhappy. So what you are saying is that either my daughter should educated herself to feel comfortable or stay at home. You are saying the same to women who can't share facilities with adult human males for religious reasons. And to anyone other woman with boundaries. You are saying that women don't matter.

The upshot of changing the meaning of the word woman is that legal protections based on biology cease to have meaning.

Do you reject the fact that women and girls have, throughout the ages, faced discrimination based upon the biological fact that they are women?

I would also urge you to understand that you are in the comfortable position of believing that men and women are equal precisely because of women like us in previous generations who have fought for the provisions that you are happy to give away. Don't take that away for future generations.

They spend their childhood not fitting in. I can't imagine how it must feel to feel you aren't the right gender. In the wrong body if you will. They have to play on what they feel is the wrong team, they can't enter things they feel thry could.

In many ways, this is how I felt as a child. Whilst I may not have known the word 'gender' I knew exactly what it was and I've been 'gender critical' since a young age.

Gender was being told something wasn't very ladylike. Gender was being expected to like certain things and dislike certain things just because I was a girl. Gender was me being told at a joint birthday party for (to my mind) two of my classmates that I had to go and stand with the girls and the 'girl' cake and not the boys. Even though it didn't feel like the right 'team' for me.

I assumed there must be something wrong with me, that I just wasn't good enough at being a girl as the others were and I just needed to get better at it. But then I realised it wasn't me that was the problem, it was the narrow views of what it meant to be a girl/woman that were the problem. Wider society.

I suppose that's one of the reasons it rattles me so much when we're told that not only is there such a thing as 'feeling like a woman' in a way that doesn't involve biology, but that some men feel like women despite biology and therefore they are women. In every sense of the word. No debate. Acceptance without exception. I don't know what it means to feel like a woman.

The other reason it rattles me is because I find it incredibly homophobic to suggest that a male who feels in the way I quoted must be a woman because he doesn't adequately fit in the man box. And that is what TWAW is saying, to me.

It is the issue isn't it? Women become mothers due to their biology. Once a child is born her life is her child's. It is love that binds us. There is no escaping it. This is the prime issue for me. It is maternal love that binds women, that limits their freedoms, that stops them speaking out. Ultimately it is this love that makes us so vulnerable.

The other reason it rattles me is because I find it incredibly homophobic to suggest that a male who feels in the way I quoted must be a woman because he doesn't adequately fit in the man box. And that is what TWAW is saying, to me

It is. All those young girls being told they are inadequate females for not wanting wear certain things or behave a certain way or be sexually available to men. Told they are wrong, and instead of the solution being to REMOVE 'gender' boundaries they enforce them! Tell them if they want to do those things that they're not really a girl but a boy.

Telling a child they can somehow choose their sex or change it rather than deal with sexism and homophobia is unthinkable, yet it's even being taught in schools.

Look at the girls in question too. Mostly young lesbians. I can't say what I really think here about the adults pushing this agenda because I'd probably get banned. But these kids are nothing but collateral damage.

It's not gendered language it's sexed language

Yes exactly. It isn't language based on our personalities but our biological sex which is the only thing we all have in common and the reason for our continued oppression.
If a few people wish to use different words to describe themselves fine, but the rest of us have the same right to use ours.

It isn't happening to men. It would never be allowed to happen to men.
It's about power and control. Hand maids take here we come.

Tale