AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

I don’t understand why access to changing rooms and toilets for girls and women must be achieved at all costs if your relative is aware that they can’t change sex ? And accepts they won’t be skating in the women’s category , and will be using health care designed for people with male bodies? What is it that is the attraction of these places? You said I think that he has friends who also see no reason why they should not all be there, so if they are all trans , what would actually happen if they went into the other facility? I would suggest there is some other motivation there if this is the crunch issue.

Just to clarify for others reading along. The girl guide issue is not that meetings were open to transgirls. It is that GG policy is that if a transgirl is going to camp, no safeguarding measures can be taken (iirc). I do remember clearly that parents of the other girls were NOT to be told there was the potential their guide would be sharing a tent with a male guide (at whatever stage of transition). Nor were parents to be told about mtf transitioned GG leaders who might be away with your daughter.

Oh, and while at camp, it may have communal showers and changing rooms. But also, the girls of course change in their shared tents.

The GG issue is a safeguarding issue without a doubt.

Part of understanding this is knowing just where the boundaries are set, where the lines are drawn.

And again, you’re set on the idea that this is a done deal and any attempts to regain some rights for women and girls is futile because it’s past tense. If you had any empathy you would acknowledge that this can’t be set in the past tense while the people you call “men with fetishes” are now using the same reasons you use to justify your stepchild’s use of opposite sex facilities.

This is it, really.

The panel question is difficult because in the society that we live in at the moment transwomen and natalwomen issues are largely treated under the same umbrella. If she wanted to be a part of a panel reviewing cervical cancer or post-birth care, I would say no. That's ridiculous. But like a student union? I wouldn't object to her running. It's up to 'the union' if they want to elect her or not.

As for gender awards, I honestly don't care. But I don't care about awards in general. Like say Hunter Schafer wins best actress at next years emmys, I'm not going to object to that.

fasted

This is what confuses me a bit because you will say no to one thing and yes to another. But if your child has a screaming meltdown as you put it over a toilet but then you would and presumably they would be OK with not being able to access something else? How does that work ? Again not having a go I'm just trying trying understand how that actually works

So I have this idea ( maybe wrong these days) that students who on roles in the union also are quite likely to be involved in politics at some point. There are many roles where women can get a taste of this and where their experience as women could be brought to that role . You are saying your relative would be able to take on that role and look after the interests of girls and women, thereby taking a place normally taken by a woman where again, they would be dismissing the needs of others? Seems like appropriation and a very male play for power and control in a world that is already biased against the female sex.

@Winesalot

Just to clarify for others reading along. The girl guide issue is not that meetings were open to transgirls. It is that GG policy is that if a transgirl is going to camp, no safeguarding measures can be taken (iirc). I do remember clearly that parents of the other girls were NOT to be told there was the potential their guide would be sharing a tent with a male guide (at whatever stage of transition). Nor were parents to be told about mtf transitioned GG leaders who might be away with your daughter.

Oh, and while at camp, it may have communal showers and changing rooms. But also, the girls of course change in their shared tents.

The GG issue is a safeguarding issue without a doubt.

Part of understanding this is knowing just where the boundaries are set, where the lines are drawn.

Like I said in my first post, sd went to boarding school for her final two years of school. She stayed in the girl's halls, but we negotiated with the school to ensure a single bedroom with a private ensuite. We're not unreasonable in that regard, and I assure you that a transwoman with true gd is not going to want to get her dick out in front of your daughter anymore than your daughter wants to see her dick. It's a very dysphoric experience. For that reason alone, we would talk to the camp organiser and sort something out well before camp. I don't want my child to be uncomfortable any more than you want yours to be, and sharing a tent with somebody who is uncomfortable is uncomfortable.

@Whatwouldscullydo

fasted

This is what confuses me a bit because you will say no to one thing and yes to another. But if your child has a screaming meltdown as you put it over a toilet but then you would and presumably they would be OK with not being able to access something else? How does that work ? Again not having a go I'm just trying trying understand how that actually works

Using the toilet is a need, it's not a want. We can have a reasonable discussion about a want about why it might not be a good idea. The toilet thing is a very black and white, tangible experience. You don't have the privilege of being bummed out but knowing that other opportunities will come along, it goes against your every instinct.

Anyway, though the minutiae of this one family's views, ideas and life is fascinating, this thread is about women not being silenced for speaking up for women and girls. Something this poster agrees with. I don't think it's surprising that people in general can only see and consider issues based on their personal field of experience. A Muslim girl who can't access the toilets or a rape survivor may see the same issues completely differently. As will their families.

Thanks for answering. Of course, you know that women’s officer roles in uni shape the policy around ALL females needs. So you are happy for a women’s officer role to have a male shaping the needs of women in university. Including, free speech about female issues. Can you not see conflicts there?

And I am sure that you are aware that awards for women are very important for women in the pursuit of their careers. No matter how unnecessary you think they are.

How do you support skating competitions but not awards recognizing excellence of women’s performance in other areas.

Fasted many transwomen can and do get their dicks out to intimidate How can we know which ones will do this and which won’t. And it’s not due to whether they pass or not. We just don’t want it and an understanding of that .would go a long way.

Fastedbrownie

From your posts on this thread, your answer to the Staniland question is yes, your ok with it if they’re nice and genuine like your SD, but no if it’s the likes of Yaniv.

Is that fair?

And if so, how does anyone tell the difference?

I think that it is a problem with trans women representing women. There are sex based differences that trans women will never experience. Apart from the safety and privacy aspects.

My husband is not at all sexist. He has a small business (his own). He hired a young woman two years ago. After 3 months she got pregnant (“she wasn’t expecting to get pregnant so quickly”), took a years maternity leave and then decided to to come back to work as he couldn’t accommodate part time working for business reasons.

As I woman, I think this woman was completely entitled to this. My husband spent a lot of money recruiting her, paid maternity leave and held her position open for a year. My husband says he will never employ a young woman again. I am not sure I blame him. But I am sure that many young women struggle to get work in small businesses due to this.

I view this problem as something that urgently needs to be solved in society from a feminist point of view. Most organisations where trans women come in are increasingly focused on trans issues. This is an example why biological women need their own representation and trans women should have their own representation. Trans women should not take spaces allocated especially for women.

To me, Fastedbrownie, the glaring elephant in the room, is how the constant utilisation of women and girls are absolutely crucial to your adult step child (sorry, clunky description).

It's not about the spaces. It's about the requirement of women and girls to be in those spaces. If all the women and girls left the space, your step child would follow them. Not only that, your step child requires, indeed relies upon, the fact that women must still call those spaces female only - for your step child's benefit.

I don't think there's a woman here who doesn't sympathise with having a child with mh issues, but this entitlement to use women and girls as a resource and fuck it if they don't like it, is breathtaking.

actually fastbrownie I had read that. I was genuinely pointing out the Guides issue after I saw it mentioned so that readers unfamiliar with guides would think that normal meetings was all guides did in their groups. And that it isn’t just accommodating tween and teenager but also leaders.

Back to the thread!
Women should not be banned from social media for defending their rights to safe secure places when they are vulnerable, places which are free of people with male genitalia..
Statistics prove males present a danger to women and Transwomen are male and all evidence shows just as much of a danger to women as other males.

Absolutely, Datun.

Can I just mention that we are nearing the end of this very important thread. Could someone take the baton and start thread 4 please I may not be able to at the time it goes. Cheers

And in one university at the moment we have a recently transitioned male in the women’s role and a transwoman in the LGBT role. And you think this is ok?

And we have currently a board that is supposed to be gender balanced, yet has 75% males. Is it that you think this is ok too? One more mtf on the board makes it nearly 90%. Still ok? Why? Because you feel that the women applying for the boards are ‘not of a high enough caliber’? Just not intelligent enough?

@Winesalot

And in one university at the moment we have a recently transitioned male in the women’s role and a transwoman in the LGBT role. And you think this is ok?

And we have currently a board that is supposed to be gender balanced, yet has 75% males. Is it that you think this is ok too? One more mtf on the board makes it nearly 90%. Still ok? Why? Because you feel that the women applying for the boards are ‘not of a high enough caliber’? Just not intelligent enough?

Presumably they've been voted into those roles by their peers.

I don't believe in gender balancing. If I get a role, I would like to have recieved it because I was the best candidate. Not because they need another vagina in the room.

Sd went to boarding school for the last two years of school and was in the girl's hall, but had a single bedroom with ensuite. Worked fine

And I don't know why you feel parents of other children have the right to be informed about my child's personal/medical information. Trans people are entitled to that 'dignity' and 'privacy' concept you keep blabbing on about too, and if you wouldn't be behind schools sharing another child's HIV status/mh diagnosis, I don't know you feel entitled it's appropriate for them to share my child's personal data

As the mother of a daughter who went to a single SEX girls school - I would have damn well felt I (and she) had the right to know that there was a girl with a penis there.

But wait, I'm glad your child was ok...

And yet jj, we even get many posters on these boards who tell us their trans friends respect females and their rights but want to just live their lives. So, which is it? Only a few who we see on twitter or is what other posters say true too and perhaps there are more than you want to acknowledge

How can this circle ever be squared. It is not possible to respect females and our rights and yet go about living their lives presumably using our spaces? And whilst the individuals that just want to live their lives might provide anecdotal data, the Stonewall 'Acception without Exception' does much damage to this group - come one come all. Therefore the line has to be at none.

I view this problem as something that urgently needs to be solved in society from a feminist point of view. Most organisations where trans women come in are increasingly focused on trans issues. This is an example why biological women need their own representation and trans women should have their own representation. Trans women should not take spaces allocated especially for women.

Indeed. If a male individual wants to access a position reserved for women, as means of validation, what hope is there that they are suddenly going to start putting women and their needs first. Or any understanding of what those needs actually are.

I'm reminded of a male born woman's officer who claimed to support period poverty whilst simultaneously maintaining they could get pregnant.

The conflict of interest is obvious.

I don't believe in gender balancing. If I get a role, I would like to have recieved it because I was the best candidate. Not because they need another vagina in the room.

Let's just dismiss sexism in its entirety. Patriarchy, chauvinism, misogyny and any need whatsoever for feminism. The lot can go.

@TheWordWomanIsTaken

Sd went to boarding school for the last two years of school and was in the girl's hall, but had a single bedroom with ensuite. Worked fine

And I don't know why you feel parents of other children have the right to be informed about my child's personal/medical information. Trans people are entitled to that 'dignity' and 'privacy' concept you keep blabbing on about too, and if you wouldn't be behind schools sharing another child's HIV status/mh diagnosis, I don't know you feel entitled it's appropriate for them to share my child's personal data

As the mother of a daughter who went to a single SEX girls school - I would have damn well felt I (and she) had the right to know that there was a girl with a penis there.

But wait, I'm glad your child was ok...

And yet jj, we even get many posters on these boards who tell us their trans friends respect females and their rights but want to just live their lives. So, which is it? Only a few who we see on twitter or is what other posters say true too and perhaps there are more than you want to acknowledge

How can this circle ever be squared. It is not possible to respect females and our rights and yet go about living their lives presumably using our spaces? And whilst the individuals that just want to live their lives might provide anecdotal data, the Stonewall 'Acception without Exception' does much damage to this group - come one come all. Therefore the line has to be at none.

Why do you feel entitled to another child's personal medical information?

Let's just dismiss sexism in its entirety. Patriarchy, chauvinism, misogyny and any need whatsoever for feminism. The lot can go.

As I've said, it's always a particular kind of person who espouses this.