AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

Sometimes it simply is a zero sum game. There is no way to square the circle of women needing, and having the legal right to single sex spaces, and transwomen wanting access to those spaces for a variety of reasons - although none of which trump women’s needs.

There are options open to TW: use the spaces allocated to their biological sex, or campaign for third spaces. There is no alternative option open to women who want to maintain the boundary of keeping their spaces single sex.

How entitled do you have to be to demand one group gives up their right to privacy, dignity and safety when there are other options available to you?

Exactly. Great post

[quote Thewithesarehere]@RootyT00t
Didn’t you say this : No, but by saying you can't change your biological sex, people are effectively denying the existence of trans.

Can you, in good conscience, write something like this on a topic as sensitive as this thread’s where there may be parents (at least one that we know of) who have actively opted to try and change the sex of their children after the reassurance of the medical advice they were receive at that time?
Where is your heart?[/quote]
@Thewithesarehere
The faux, manipulative concern for these children after your response to the real life one on this thread is laughable.

Following this post and your last we are done here .

[quote JoodyBlue]Anyone still reading this, please watch this film - the final 5 minutes of the 4 part documentary is utterly utterly harrowing. It deserves to be watched. [/quote]
Thanks JoodyBlue, I will watch these later.

To answer your silly question jj, if a boy passes so well that no one knows he's a boy, the question doesn't arise. I said much earlier on that my attitude is, what the eye don't see the heart don't grieve after.

Now, where is your concern for the women who are never going to be safe again, if men who haven't transitioned and have no intention of doing so, are allowed by law to go into all women's spaces?

The reason I keep coming back to Ms Beardie, is because the majority of people who call themselves transwomen, have no intention of transitioning and look very much like Ms B.

Do you believe that Ms Beardie should have the legal right to use women's facilities?

hi @jj1968 - I hope you saw my question - please can you let us have any evidence you have gathered that transwomen (regardless how they present) are more at risk of danger in the men's toilets than any other vulnerable male group like teenagers or small camp men. It may be useful for the third space campaign.

And they don't have it, so what do you expect them to do in the meantime. Do you honestly expect the trans parent on here to send her daughter into the men's? Do you even care what the results of that might be?

actually, we do have our own spaces in law. There is only confusion because Stonewall and EHRC have deliberately introduced it by publicising false versions of the law. (surely there's a law against that?)

Do you even care what the results of my beardie friends with their inspirational lady penises coming into the women's loos might be, for women?

How many people on here have come across a trans woman with a beard in a woman's space? How many people have come across a male presenting man claiming to be a trans woman in a woman's space? Has this happened to anyone you know? Anyone in the world?

It's completely disingenuous and doesn't in anyway reflect reality. Just because some could possibly happen doesn't mean it will definitely happen or that it will beome widespread. It hasn't happened despite trans inclusion being the norm in most of the western world - to the point that when just one US state tried to introduce a bathroom bill it caused an international outrage and nearly bankrupt the state and the law was hastily rescinded. Millions of trans women are using women's toilets and changing rooms alongside millions of other women everyday and this army of bearded predators, or trans imposters, or even abusive trans women has not materialised.

It's a classic moral panic, and this whole well if we let the trans women in than any man could just walk in, well guess what, even if you banned the trans women then any man could just walk in and claim to be a cleaner, a cop, an intersex person, a trans man or countless other things yet there is no social outrage about that.

The truth is you could win every single thing you want, trans women banned from all women's spaces everywhere and your life would not change in the slightest. Most women would barely even notice except the FWR posters who would need to get another hobby. And men would continue to hurt women in bedrooms boardrooms and backstreets as they always have. It feels like like trans women have become a scapegoat for male violence despite being equally at risk of it. Perhaps it's easier to demolish the lives of trans people then us all do something about endemic male violence.

To quote Dworkin discussing right wing women:

@gardenbird48

hi *@jj1968* - I hope you saw my question - please can you let us have any evidence you have gathered that transwomen (regardless how they present) are more at risk of danger in the men's toilets than any other vulnerable male group like teenagers or small camp men. It may be useful for the third space campaign.

And they don't have it, so what do you expect them to do in the meantime. Do you honestly expect the trans parent on here to send her daughter into the men's? Do you even care what the results of that might be?

actually, we do have our own spaces in law. There is only confusion because Stonewall and EHRC have deliberately introduced it by publicising false versions of the law. (surely there's a law against that?)

There is ample evidence that trans women are highly vulnerable to male violence as well you know. The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey found that 47% of transgender people are sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime: www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/USTS-Full-Report-FINAL.PDF

There is no evidence on how often this happened in men's toilets because trans women don't use men's toilets.

Only 47%? Not 70%?

Again though you can't keep batting back to that same man.

Ms Beardie?

OK there are others. Loads of them. Here are some more:

@ScreamingBeans

Again though you can't keep batting back to that same man.

Ms Beardie?

OK there are others. Loads of them. Here are some more:

Any.

You didn't answer the question asked.

There is no evidence on how often this happened in men's toilets because trans women don't use men's toilets.

Then I guess there's no evidence to support your position that they are at risk in male facilities, any more than you think women are with males in their spaces because there is only "1 instance in U.K. legal history". You can't have it all ways.

Why do we have single sex spaces?

Because men as a class are recognised as a threat to women, no matter how lovely any individual man may be, on the basis that women are on average physically weaker, and are uniquely vulnerable to becoming pregnant as a result of a male using his penis as a weapon.

What sex are transwomen? Male.

Do the vast majority of transwomen retain their penis? Yes.

Ergo, no transwomen in female spaces, no matter how lovely any individual transwoman may be.

It's a classic moral panic

So what happens when the very definition of our sex includes males?
When the right to be our own separate and distinct class of humans exclusive of males is taken away?
Our right to assert boundaries removed along with our language.

Toilets are the tip of the iceberg.

All being done by men without any consideration for us.
No vote. Just tough.

@RootyT00t
You do need to back off and stop trying to project your inadequacies here because every word you write here matters.

[quote Thewithesarehere]@RootyT00t
You do need to back off and stop trying to project your inadequacies here because every word you write here matters.[/quote]
Projecting my inadequacies

Nice, Op. Your true colours are showing. Shame.

There is only confusion because Stonewall and EHRC have deliberately introduced it by publicising false versions of the law.

That’s not quite true though is it? The actual legislation published by the government quoted below does more than imply that generally people should use the facilities of their acquired sex and to exclude a transsexual person based on their birth sex should be the exception, not the rule:

Gender reassignment: paragraph 28

Effect

739.This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified.

Background

740.This paragraph replaces a similar provision in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975.

Example

A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.
(My bold).

I don’t think excluding trans women from female toilets is going to be seen as objectively justifiable.

@jj1968

Do you even care what the results of my beardie friends with their inspirational lady penises coming into the women's loos might be, for women?

How many people on here have come across a trans woman with a beard in a woman's space? How many people have come across a male presenting man claiming to be a trans woman in a woman's space? Has this happened to anyone you know? Anyone in the world?

It's completely disingenuous and doesn't in anyway reflect reality. Just because some could possibly happen doesn't mean it will definitely happen or that it will beome widespread. It hasn't happened despite trans inclusion being the norm in most of the western world - to the point that when just one US state tried to introduce a bathroom bill it caused an international outrage and nearly bankrupt the state and the law was hastily rescinded. Millions of trans women are using women's toilets and changing rooms alongside millions of other women everyday and this army of bearded predators, or trans imposters, or even abusive trans women has not materialised.

It's a classic moral panic, and this whole well if we let the trans women in than any man could just walk in, well guess what, even if you banned the trans women then any man could just walk in and claim to be a cleaner, a cop, an intersex person, a trans man or countless other things yet there is no social outrage about that.

The truth is you could win every single thing you want, trans women banned from all women's spaces everywhere and your life would not change in the slightest. Most women would barely even notice except the FWR posters who would need to get another hobby. And men would continue to hurt women in bedrooms boardrooms and backstreets as they always have. It feels like like trans women have become a scapegoat for male violence despite being equally at risk of it. Perhaps it's easier to demolish the lives of trans people then us all do something about endemic male violence.

To quote Dworkin discussing right wing women:

I have, thankfully and very luckily, never been attacked/intruded upon in a female bathroom yet. Why do female toilets exists even? Also, what do you think about sports, girls guide and women-only seats?

Hiding this thread now. A genuine thanks to those who have helped to educate, taken time to teach me things and given me a lot to think about. Lots to think about moving forward. Lots of robust debate but I believe we found some kind of understanding. I certainly will continue to research this.

But I no longer believe OP to have good intentions here and she's crossed w line there's no coming back from.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There is no evidence on how often this happened in men's toilets because trans women don't use men's toilets.

Then I guess there's no evidence to support your position that they are at risk in male facilities, any more than you think women are with males in their spaces because there is only "1 instance in U.K. legal history". You can't have it all ways.

Yes one position has no evidence because it would be impossible to collect evidence because trans women don't use men's toilets so there is no data. The other position has a vast amount of data based on hundreds of millions of women using trans inclusive single sex spaces everyday with barely a handful of incidents over decades across the globe. And because this data exists then it has been examined by at least one peer reviewed study which demonstrated that trans inclusive policies do not place women at risk: link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

Mullets the reality is that now men’s crimes are reported as having been committed by women and recorded as such. Fair play for women are keeping a close eye on this area. So we now get sudden hike in numbers of supposed women committing child sexual abuse without any evidence that it is not in fact men that are pushing the figures up. There is a higher proportion of transwomen who commit sexual crimes than in the main male prison population. Some are being housed with women so it is not “just” a question of toilets and changing rooms.

@RootyT00t
I quoted your own words at you and you are still saying that I am being manipulative and have only faux care about children facing gender dysphoria and other complex issues.

I agree that we shouldn’t engage anymore.

[quote Thewithesarehere]@RootyT00t
I quoted your own words at you and you are still saying that I am being manipulative and have only faux care about children facing gender dysphoria and other complex issues.

I agree that we shouldn’t engage anymore.[/quote]
You do, and you are. wish I'd seen it earlier on but we are where we are.

jj1968 All males are excluded from female safe places because males are seen to present a threat to women's safety. Transwomen are all male so do you have evidence to suggest that male human beings who identify as transwomen are less dangerous to the female sex class than other males?

Placemarking

“Transwomen don’t use men’s toilets so there is no data”

But this whole demand that women bunk up and give up their rights to single sex spaces has been predicated on the men’s toilets being unsafe for TW. So based on what you’re saying, there’s no evidence that the gents are unsafe and therefore no reason why TW can’t use them. Problem solved!